ARTICLE 78 LAWSUIT FORCES BIG TUPPER TO CLOSE

I'm just here to post on this very important thread.

warp daddy wrote

NO I have never bothered to pick up an article from the TLFP but do have a strong opinion that the village is in a pickle economically . There seems to be a malaise in TL and no one seems either capable or willing to move in any positive direction . The situation is overwhelmingly negative and BOTH sides have errered due to intransigence again  my OPINION .


Sorry  but I do not agree  that things are one sided there is always room for negotiation  IF there is a will to better the situation for the local economy at least muster up the courage TO TRY

this bitterness and narrow minded vested interest needs to change and a CAN DO attitude needs to prevail IF TL is ever to have a better future . The environmental lobby has kept OTHER institutions out of TL before and again IMHO has not always  just been a force for greater good and as altruistic as they sometimes want to project .  Call me as I see. Em !

moreover BOTH sides are culpable on THIS issue but darn it TUPPER get going for your KIDS sakes . Lead , Follow or get the hell out of the way but damn it quit cry assin  and get busy

None of this really matters.The old adage location, location, location applies to the situation in Tupper Lake.

The real estate market is marginal in North Creek with the hugely upgraded, NYS funded Gore Mtn and a 30 minute ride from the highway. For about $150k you can buy a 3br/2.5bth townhouse less than 1 mile from the Gore access road or NC Ski Bowl. For about $340K you can buy a brand new 3br, 2100sf townhome less than 1 mile from the Gore access road.  They have sold 10 so far in the last 3 years. Ski Bowl Village which is slopeside at the Ski Bowl finally have 4 units built or under construction. It has taken almost 10 years to get to this point. If North Creek is having a tough time and has great proximity to some major population centers how will the Tupper Lake Project succeed?

Now that Big Tupper is missing snowmaking and the 3rd (main) double that was there, there is even less of a reason to drive to Tupper Lake.

This would make a pretty good movie. Seriously, I'm not trying to be cute. Either that, or Russell Banks should write a novel. So many elements of modern America to use, with great scenery.

x10003q wrote

 For about $150k you can buy a 3br/2.5bth townhouse less than 1 mile from the Gore access road or NC Ski Bowl.

do tell.

miker92 wrote

There's a great book out there called Downhill Slide: Why the Corporate Ski Industry is Bad For Skiing, Ski Towns, and the Environment I would highly recommend that anyone interested in this issue check out this book.

I read that book! It is an excellent read and one Mr. Foxman should have mastered.  

As to the rest of your post, you nailed it!

No doubt this whole thing would be an excellent Russel Banks story.  Hell he could donate some of the proceeds to ARISE and they could hire some full time help!

Benny Profane wrote

x10003q wrote

 For about $150k you can buy a 3br/2.5bth townhouse less than 1 mile from the Gore access road or NC Ski Bowl.

do tell.

Look up The Summit at Gore. There were 82 built between 1988 and maybe 1992. It is the only finished development in North Creek. If you are headed north on 28 they are on the left a little before the left  turn for Gore onto Peaceful Valley Rd.

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

x10003q wrote

 For about $150k you can buy a 3br/2.5bth townhouse less than 1 mile from the Gore access road or NC Ski Bowl.

do tell.

Look up The Summit at Gore. There were 82 built between 1988 and maybe 1992. It is the only finished development in North Creek. If you are headed north on 28 they are on the left a little before the left  turn for Gore onto Peaceful Valley Rd.

Does anybody here own there, or know much about the place? I am wary of older condo complexes, because of the collective financing. I've owned a co-op before in the NYC area, so I know that, when you are buying into a complex like that, you are obligated to some surprise costs if your neighbors can't pay for some reason. This is why banks make it hard to finance such a purchase.

The Natives are angry...

Some real hate exploding in TL.  Very sad state of affairs and quite frankly extremely unnecessary.

In the end, APA will be bullet proof.

And this ASC 80s concept never would have built out.  Maybe a couple great camps may have been constructed and sold on the 4,000 acres bringing in some property taxes for TL without the need for massive infrastructure expenditures.    

Big mistake going the Article 78.  

Instead of being patient and letting reality run its course, Protect! prematurely jumps in w/ both feet to sacrifice itself as the scapegoat...
   

I've been following this intently.   Thanks to everyone for theirs posts and opinions,  we are all entitled to' em.

Down hill slide.  Read it cover to cover.  IMHO. A rag, at best written. By a econut as unfriendky as the term is.  It reminded me of the current insanity of today's politics with each candidate spouting the facts or statistics that support his views then coming to find out the is another story.     Example: steel towns that polluted local rivers while cranking out products that won ww2.   If there were econuts then or laws to stop it.....the war would have been well over and we' d be speaking German or Japanese today.  High energy costs because while the president ran on clean coal and nukes he quickly ra. Away from them.   Great for our air and lives but bad for business in a world economy where instead of buying moderataly priced electricity from cleaner coal power producers the companies simply manufacture in cheap dirty coal countries.      Idiots believe there are linear solutions..... this or that.  The world is full of options and complexities.    

Any master debater could use the opposite argument of finding facts and stats on how any snow rider saves or destroys the environment.   IMHO we do both. Yes even those who hike and earn.    Think about the plastics, the gas, the heat for your hotel that otherwise would not need to exist.  There is a medium good and bad befalls both sides.    Those with money or power rule.   Logic is tossed along withfacts that support the opposing view.  

As for ski areas who do wind.... joke.   Pure hype.  They do it for marketing  more than economics.   Correct me if I'm wrong but would any do it if the costs were not subsidized on many levels.   By more expensive ticket prices ( hidden of course) or tax payer directly or indirectly.   Even subsidized wind power cost 2-3 times nuke.   Its like my son who is encouraged to bring a trash free lunch to school and pours his Gatorade out of the bottle and into his thermos.   I say it costs the earth more when he does it because I now have to use soap and water to wash the thermos.    Kids parents actually take prepackaged lunches and put them in Tupperware so they look environmental as the drop kids off in monster gas eaters the size of buses.    Ski area gave wind but run semi empty chairs up hills.   What irony.  

I loath people and groups like protect who simply don't play by the rules.   They lost but have the money smarts power and time to take their views  , right or wrong, to the extreme.  It costs us all in the end.  If the ton wanted to invest in stupid or folly infrastructure that's their choice.  There were procedures and rules that took place.  On playgrounds as kids we simply did not invite kids that kept arguing or changing the rulesto join in.   As adults we suffer under them and become worse for it.     Death row inmates with endless 40 yr appeals comes to mind.   You may be for or acaist it.... but that process hurts us all.    

Apologies in advance for rant.  


Sorry for big tupper and all those who got to enjoy it.   As for the development I don't know enough to say good or bad.....just bad that it went the way of extremists who cheat.  

I:)skiing wrote

I've been following this intently.   Thanks to everyone for theirs posts and opinions,  we are all entitled to' em.

Down hill slide.  Read it cover to cover.  IMHO. A rag, at best written. By a econut as unfriendky as the term is.  It reminded me of the current insanity of today's politics with each candidate spouting the facts or statistics that support his views then coming to find out the is another story.     Example: steel towns that polluted local rivers while cranking out products that won ww2.   If there were econuts then or laws to stop it.....the war would have been well over and we' d be speaking German or Japanese today.  High energy costs because while the president ran on clean coal and nukes he quickly ra. Away from them.   Great for our air and lives but bad for business in a world economy where instead of buying moderataly priced electricity from cleaner coal power producers the companies simply manufacture in cheap dirty coal countries.      Idiots believe there are linear solutions..... this or that.  The world is full of options and complexities.    

Any master debater could use the opposite argument of finding facts and stats on how any snow rider saves or destroys the environment.   IMHO we do both. Yes even those who hike and earn.    Think about the plastics, the gas, the heat for your hotel that otherwise would not need to exist.  There is a medium good and bad befalls both sides.    Those with money or power rule.   Logic is tossed along withfacts that support the opposing view.  

As for ski areas who do wind.... joke.   Pure hype.  They do it for marketing  more than economics.   Correct me if I'm wrong but would any do it if the costs were not subsidized on many levels.   By more expensive ticket prices ( hidden of course) or tax payer directly or indirectly.   Even subsidized wind power cost 2-3 times nuke.   Its like my son who is encouraged to bring a trash free lunch to school and pours his Gatorade out of the bottle and into his thermos.   I say it costs the earth more when he does it because I now have to use soap and water to wash the thermos.    Kids parents actually take prepackaged lunches and put them in Tupperware so they look environmental as the drop kids off in monster gas eaters the size of buses.    Ski area gave wind but run semi empty chairs up hills.   What irony.  

I loath people and groups like protect who simply don't play by the rules.   They lost but have the money smarts power and time to take their views  , right or wrong, to the extreme.  It costs us all in the end.  If the ton wanted to invest in stupid or folly infrastructure that's their choice.  There were procedures and rules that took place.  On playgrounds as kids we simply did not invite kids that kept arguing or changing the rulesto join in.   As adults we suffer under them and become worse for it.     Death row inmates with endless 40 yr appeals comes to mind.   You may be for or acaist it.... but that process hurts us all.    

Apologies in advance for rant.  


Sorry for big tupper and all those who got to enjoy it.   As for the development I don't know enough to say good or bad.....just bad that it went the way of extremists who cheat.

Can't even begin to argue with you as an intellectual here. Are you saying that you'd rather have an innocent man executed instead of a 40 year appeal process? The fact here is that it doesn't matter whether PROTECT "lost," even if there is considerable evidence that they did not lose fair and square. Just because they "lost" doesn't mean the people who won were right. To continue with WWII analogies, I suppose the US shouldn't have invaded Normandy. After all, the French LOST and it wasn't our place to take our views, right or wrong, to the extreme. D-day cost a lot of lives in the end and was apparently not worth it.

I sincerely hope all of the ignorant scum on this planet dies off in time to do something about the environmental crisis. In the mean time, I'll collect my opinions from scientists and other highly educated experts and I'll do my best to continue defending those people against the idiocy of the internet.

I:)skiing wrote

I've been following this intently.   Thanks to everyone for theirs posts and opinions,  we are all entitled to' em.

Down hill slide.  Read it cover to cover.  IMHO. A rag, at best written. By a econut as unfriendky as the term is.  It reminded me of the current insanity of today's politics with each candidate spouting the facts or statistics that support his views then coming to find out the is another story.     Example: steel towns that polluted local rivers while cranking out products that won ww2.   If there were econuts then or laws to stop it.....the war would have been well over and we' d be speaking German or Japanese today.  High energy costs because while the president ran on clean coal and nukes he quickly ra. Away from them.   Great for our air and lives but bad for business in a world economy where instead of buying moderataly priced electricity from cleaner coal power producers the companies simply manufacture in cheap dirty coal countries.      Idiots believe there are linear solutions..... this or that.  The world is full of options and complexities.    

Any master debater could use the opposite argument of finding facts and stats on how any snow rider saves or destroys the environment.   IMHO we do both. Yes even those who hike and earn.    Think about the plastics, the gas, the heat for your hotel that otherwise would not need to exist.  There is a medium good and bad befalls both sides.    Those with money or power rule.   Logic is tossed along withfacts that support the opposing view.  

As for ski areas who do wind.... joke.   Pure hype.  They do it for marketing  more than economics.   Correct me if I'm wrong but would any do it if the costs were not subsidized on many levels.   By more expensive ticket prices ( hidden of course) or tax payer directly or indirectly.   Even subsidized wind power cost 2-3 times nuke.   Its like my son who is encouraged to bring a trash free lunch to school and pours his Gatorade out of the bottle and into his thermos.   I say it costs the earth more when he does it because I now have to use soap and water to wash the thermos.    Kids parents actually take prepackaged lunches and put them in Tupperware so they look environmental as the drop kids off in monster gas eaters the size of buses.    Ski area gave wind but run semi empty chairs up hills.   What irony.  

I loath people and groups like protect who simply don't play by the rules.   They lost but have the money smarts power and time to take their views  , right or wrong, to the extreme.  It costs us all in the end.  If the ton wanted to invest in stupid or folly infrastructure that's their choice.  There were procedures and rules that took place.  On playgrounds as kids we simply did not invite kids that kept arguing or changing the rulesto join in.   As adults we suffer under them and become worse for it.     Death row inmates with endless 40 yr appeals comes to mind.   You may be for or acaist it.... but that process hurts us all.    

Apologies in advance for rant.  


Sorry for big tupper and all those who got to enjoy it.   As for the development I don't know enough to say good or bad.....just bad that it went the way of extremists who cheat.

 Paging Russell Banks and a few screenwriters to the white courtesy phone, please.

I:)skiing wrote

As for ski areas who do wind.... joke.   Pure hype.  They do it for marketing  more than economics.   Correct me if I'm wrong but would any do it if the costs were not subsidized on many levels.   By more expensive ticket prices ( hidden of course) or tax payer directly or indirectly.   Even subsidized wind power cost 2-3 times nuke.  

Name one type of energy generation with output like a ski area wind turbine that is not subsidized by the government.

Answer: You can't.

I don't agree with everything in your rant, but I am happy to have read it.

skiing, If you dont know enough about the development then don't make idiotic pronouncements like: " bad that it went the way of extremists who cheat". The lawsuit is far from settled, if you'd bothered to check a few details it's quite clear that if anyone wasn't playing by the rules (cheats) it was the developer in conjunction with the APA. And if Protect hadn't filed any lawsuit this development would be in the exact same place today, going nowhere. the developers who have never developed anything have and never had have the capital to pull this fantasy off.

Not the best writer as is obvious.   However if anyone rereads with unbiased mind the point was there is no pure right or wrong.        Just decisions that are influenced by power money and time.   Over raw facts that neither side in this or current politicians would admit to.    We can't trust what we read as it it tainted.    Tainted by the fact givers.  The reporter. And time or perspective.      Time or perspective may say we entered ww2 to save the Jewish slaughter.   Others say free the french as above...   I only say it was not a linear decision and politics played more into the decision than facts.   Hey.   Today people would argue w great stats to back them up that we ONLY entered ww2 to help fat cat rich industrialists.    I say the Jews were such a small part..but would give up all of our rivers polluted with iron and coal acid to have freed one prison.   I agree all wind and solar is subsidized...along with all coal as and oil..  I raised the wind issue only as a perfect example of fact hiding and linear thinking and reporting....my sons lunch was right with it.   Hide the fact that we skiers are using huge amounts of power for otherwise fun and then we feel good because some of that power is generated by wind at a " current" higher cost than other power... then we bitch tat ticket prices go up?   Would marketing allow the real cost of wind to become known?  Would eviro groups sue to stop cutting trees and disturbing ground for wind towers w the same intent as a lift tower?  There is no black and white.....but hey as seen in some responses its easier to argue in those colors.   As for tupper... I have followed the facts and was not arguing over if the development should go or not.    Rather as I wrote... I am upset that money power influence and time corrupted or was allowed to play a part in the decision.  From Everything I have read protects suit against the APA is frivolous..     in another thread I believe I wrote that the attorneys likely used tipper as a pawn to line their pockets.    State attorneys or the counsel the hire to defend get paid too.  Its a game.If we all really cared about the Earth we wouldove to some climate where neither heat nor AC was needed and walk or bike to work, have sisterns and septic and not use garage door openers.     We do love mother Earth but we make our life decisions based on money  influences  power and time.     Sorry for all the typos... android phone does not work well w this site.  I can't see what I am writing and spell check takes over.  

Skiing, Wow! to much happy hour before you sat down to write that post.

This thread is getting awesome. I love September/October on ski forums. A bunch of people totally pissed that ski season isn't here yet, and taking out their frustrations in the most interesting ways . . .

^^^^ So true!  Hey, it's still mtn bike season! Ride your bike!

Yikes, Don't open your mouth in Tupper Lake if you are not 100% for ACR. In a guest commentary in the Adirondack Daily Enterprise, www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com , Mark Moeller(Jim Lavalleys' brother in law) went on a major rant/rage under the heading,"Mad as Hell". Blaming Protect and the local landowners who filed the lawsuit against the APA, for stopping Big Tupper from opening for the upcoming ski season. What a joke! If the lawsuit had never been filed, Big Tupper would have to have been run the same as the last 3 seasons, natural snow only, no snowmaking. The ACR had no intention of rebuilding the ski area, at least as far a skiing was concerned, for at least 3 yrs. In their own timetalbe in their application they were looking at 3-4 yrs after getting their permit before they even started "upgrading" the snowmaking system. (The non existent system that they the developers sold off in the past 3 yrs) And their earliest date for replacing a chairlift was in yr 7 of the plan. Mr Moeller is right, people may be mad about Big Tupper not opening this yr but their anger should be directed at the developers if anyone. They now have their permit, they don't have to spend a penny defending the lawsuit. The least they can do is to cough up a hundred grand or so to keep us skiing up there this yr. After all ARISE bought a Groomer last year so if the big developer had any integrity they should help get the hill open, they have been using Big Tupper as a carrot for years to get support for the project. Well, the support is there, it's time for them to put up or shut up. Enough with the scapegoats for this projects lack of progress.  

I:)skiing wrote

Not the best writer as is obvious.   However if anyone rereads with unbiased mind the point was there is no pure right or wrong.        Just decisions that are influenced by power money and time.   Over raw facts that neither side in this or current politicians would admit to.    We can't trust what we read as it it tainted.    Tainted by the fact givers.  The reporter. And time or perspective.      Time or perspective may say we entered ww2 to save the Jewish slaughter.   Others say free the french as above...   I only say it was not a linear decision and politics played more into the decision than facts.   Hey.   Today people would argue w great stats to back them up that we ONLY entered ww2 to help fat cat rich industrialists.    I say the Jews were such a small part..but would give up all of our rivers polluted with iron and coal acid to have freed one prison.   I agree all wind and solar is subsidized...along with all coal as and oil..  I raised the wind issue only as a perfect example of fact hiding and linear thinking and reporting....my sons lunch was right with it.   Hide the fact that we skiers are using huge amounts of power for otherwise fun and then we feel good because some of that power is generated by wind at a " current" higher cost than other power... then we bitch tat ticket prices go up?   Would marketing allow the real cost of wind to become known?  Would eviro groups sue to stop cutting trees and disturbing ground for wind towers w the same intent as a lift tower?  There is no black and white.....but hey as seen in some responses its easier to argue in those colors.   As for tupper... I have followed the facts and was not arguing over if the development should go or not.    Rather as I wrote... I am upset that money power influence and time corrupted or was allowed to play a part in the decision.  From Everything I have read protects suit against the APA is frivolous..     in another thread I believe I wrote that the attorneys likely used tipper as a pawn to line their pockets.    State attorneys or the counsel the hire to defend get paid too.  Its a game.If we all really cared about the Earth we wouldove to some climate where neither heat nor AC was needed and walk or bike to work, have sisterns and septic and not use garage door openers.     We do love mother Earth but we make our life decisions based on money  influences  power and time.     Sorry for all the typos... android phone does not work well w this site.  I can't see what I am writing and spell check takes over.

This is pure interwebz awesomeness!  

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