Glens Falls Post Star Editorial About Tax Funds for ORDA

70'S. How is Big Tupper doing? Fortunately or Unfortunately we will never find out. The APA will give it a form of permit called an "Order" which will put many conditions in which the developers will scream about and probably call it quits. Or more likely, someone will appeal it which will stop everything for a couple years and the developers will cry and blame their giving up on anyone who had any questions about their plan and/or the environmental groups and the APA. If Front Street is any indication the ACR guys would be wise to pack up and cut their losses now.

The other side of the coin is there are other mtns without condos, mtns that pay taxes, that pay their own way and their terrain is open midweek. So......

Do tell.

Well Benny, West mtn for one and they have to buy all their snowmaking water from the city.

These State run mtns operate with probably less than 60-70% of the expenses of a private run mtn and Gore/Face are at the top of the lift ticket price range.

While I'm not sure, I would be surprised if the Olympic venues lose big money. ORDA didn't pay for them, has no mortgage or taxes to pay and employee retirement/healthcare costs very well maybe paid for by the State. Likely they don't have to pay SSI costs either.

It's not free to use those facilities or attend events there.

Y'all can believe whatever you want but I don't buy the kool aid they're pushing. It's just doesn't add up or pass the smell test.

Oh, I thought you meant a mountain I would like to ski on.

Snowballs wrote

Well Benny, West mtn for one and they have to buy all their snowmaking water from the city.

West Mountain? That's your answer? A 124 acre day area?  Come SB you're better than that. 
Plus West  Mountain is close to all the beds in Lake George if people wanted to stay and ski West.

I can only think of a few comparables in the Northeast for Gore that do not have slopeside and/or major beds within 5 miles. I am pretty sure MRG and Wildcat do not have slope side beds although they are both within areas of plentiful accommodations. Cannon does not have slopeside but Mittersill does and there is way more lodging near Cannon vs Gore. Also, Cannon is NH run. I do not think Black Mtn in NH has slopeside, but, like Wildcat, it has Jackson to North Conway to support the apres ski and lodging.

Any other examples of major ski areas with no slope side and minimal beds like Gore?

None the less a very valid example Benny. Especially factoring in your sentiment......

Benny Profane wrote

Oh, I thought you meant a mountain I would like to ski on.

Correct Benny, West doesn't have the big mtn draw of Gore, or it's tax free, State-paid(s)-for-it-all-business-model, yet West does just fine. The Taxpayers don't have to pay for anything at West, there's no slopeside condos and despite less natural snowfall, West has far better snow Gore !!! WTH!!! Plus Gore's weekend lift tickets cost 52% more than West's and Gore's weekday lift tickets cost 62% more than West's. What the Hell!!!

Gore should have the best snow coverage around and every terrain pod open every day of the week. They don't. Far from it.

You people outta be bitchin up a storm instead of making excuses for Gore.

How can anybody make excuses for Gore?

I just think this board makes way too many excuses for Gore. Boo hoo-ing lack of beds, State funding cuts, on and on and doesn't hold Gore/ORDA accountable (even verbally) or look at the many, many other examples of private mtns who do just fine financially and turn out a better product.

Not many people bunk over to ski West Mtn, X.

Not sure lack of beds is an issue at Gore. The hotels that are there can barely stay open, routinely shut down and it's doubtfull the ones that do stay open are sold out. Plus for decades, any condo/housing projects started either fail or downsize or fade away.....so where is all this pressing need for beds ?

If anyone knows, please inform the developers and hotel owners as I've no doubts they could SORELY use some of this business.

Lack of beds isn't an issue at Gore. They can't fill the ones they have now.

Lack of customers isn't an issue either. ORDA is the issue.

70s Gore Kid wrote

Or how about the new Hotel Jay (if that is what it is called) at Jay Peak?  Harv, you really like Jay, could you see that at Gore?

I think the condo setup at Jay Peak is really good. What they did with the condos there is really brilliant.  There's mellow pitch in the terrain BELOW the main base area, and they ran a slow, fixed grip double down one very gentle green run.  It's a prime place for little ones to learn, and mom or dad can watch from the window. It's wide and covered with corduroy. It makes the whole mountain ski in-ski out and you can't see the condos from anywhere on the hill.


Stateside Lodge at Jay Peak

I'm not a fan of the hotel, aesthetically.  It's a really nice building but I'm stateside guy.  That crappy little building with the picnic tables is my kind of place. Believe me I know I am in the minority.  Maybe I'm too old to be "that guy" but when I go to a ski mountain I'm want to experience the elements and feel like I'm in a mountain environment.  It's not too hard to figure that I'm an oddball. Look at my cabin - it would suit very few people.

Maybe a simple "no sissy" mountain won't work anymore. If the choice was condos at Gore or closing the place, I'd take the condos. Do they have to be in Lot A?

Harv

Sorry I think i was the one that took this thread off in a tangent of condos in the Gore parking lot.  For me adding condos alone is not a deal killer as long as the MT would gain in significant ways i.e. not just more terrian expansion or better lifts but staying open fully mid week.  The other big benefit would be the addition of a ski shop and some places to eat and drink.  

How can you have two orda ski areas without any hard goods ski shops?  - that is not world class.  It would be great to able to have a good boot fitter on site or be able to demo the new boards before you buy.

And you are so right - jay peak seems to find a balance of old and new, hard core and tourist that is truely world class in just about everything they do.

ausable skier wrote

Benny you are so all over the map - you love kmart no you hate it.  How can you say Vail is not as good a mountain as BC.  BC is so much more the wall street range rover crowd and the back bowls rock.  BC gets so much less snow.  Vail does suck if all you do is stay on the front side but that is only for a warm up run and a ski out at the end of the day.

Yeah, well, that's Killington. I understand why it's hated, and, I wish Sugarbush and Stowe were as close, but 4 1/2 - 5 hours is my upper limit for driving. I also know the place intimately and have a few friends that love to explore and show me around, after twenty years. Superb tree skiing there. Gore comes close, though.  

Beaver Creek is the furthest mountain from Denver, on I 70, so it gets the least skiers. I hate crowds. The terrain is excellent, and, I disagree, I've had spectacular powder days there. Plenty of snow. Also, like Deer Valley,  BC attracts a crowd that can't ski very well, certainly not powder. Remember that the next time you're in Utah in the SLC circus, and a nice dump rolls in. There's stuff at DV in the trees two days after a storm, while Alta gets cut up before 10am on the day of the storm. There, I gave you a secret tip. Now I have to hunt you down and kill you, unless you send me a case of Belgian ale.

This had been a fantastic thread. Clearly we are way off-topic now, but I can't really figure out how or where to break it. Suggestions welcome. Whatever.

ausable skier wrote

Sorry I think i was the one that took this thread off in a tangent of condos in the Gore parking lot.

IMO the condo discussion is not the slightest bit off topic to this thread. It's my opinion that you can't separate privatization from real estate, slopeslide and beds.

While Snowballs makes a legit point about the beds currently going unfilled in North Creek, I don't think the solution is as simple as running some lifts midweek.

I see this as a chicken or the egg thing.  A PRIVATE operator could say "look - we are going to TURN THIS PLACE INTO A DESTINATION. We going to borrow or invest a ton of money, run all our lifts midweek even if they are empty, and we're going to build some condos.  We'll give it five years and if we operate at a loss, that's the risk we take.  No state government could do that - they just don't have the leeway to choose to loose millions.

Benny Profane wrote

Killington....I also know the place intimately and have a few friends that love to explore and show me around, after twenty years. Superb tree skiing there. Gore comes close, though.

Quite a testimonial to the job done by the men in black, and Gore too, IMO.

This may sound crazy to some, but for me Gore has a certain vibe in common with Jay Peak.  The thing that I love most about skiing at Gore, is Gore itself.  It's not the lodge, or the bar, or the ease of access or any of the amenities. It's what's inside those 400+ acres - the terrain and the people.

Harvey44 wrote

This may sound crazy to some, but for me Gore has a certain vibe in common with Jay Peak.  The thing that I love most about skiing at Gore, is Gore itself.  It's not the lodge, or the bar, or the ease of access or any of the amenities. It's what's inside those 400+ acres - the terrain and the people.

Although with that being said, I'm sure there are many places that have the same sort of vibe/terrain. But most of them are smaller places (Magic, MRG, Plattekill, ect.) where all the locals seem to know eachother. Gore definitely has the small town feel. That (and proximity) is what keeps me coming back.

I'll check back in a year and see how I feel after spending a good amount of time at Magic this season.

Harvey44 wrote

This had been a fantastic thread. Clearly we are way off-topic now, but I can't really figure out how or where to break it. Suggestions welcome. Whatever.

ausable skier wrote

Sorry I think i was the one that took this thread off in a tangent of condos in the Gore parking lot.

IMO the condo discussion is not the slightest bit off topic to this thread. It's my opinion that you can't separate privatization from real estate, slopeslide and beds.

While Snowballs makes a legit point about the beds currently going unfilled in North Creek, I don't think the solution is as simple as running some lifts midweek.

I see this as a chicken or the egg thing.  A PRIVATE operator could say "look - we are going to TURN THIS PLACE INTO A DESTINATION. We going to borrow or invest a ton of money, run all our lifts midweek even if they are empty, and we're going to build some condos.  We'll give it five years and if we operate at a loss, that's the risk we take.  No state government could do that - they just don't have the leeway to choose to loose millions.

Benny Profane wrote

Killington....I also know the place intimately and have a few friends that love to explore and show me around, after twenty years. Superb tree skiing there. Gore comes close, though.

Quite a testimonial to the job done by the men in black, and Gore too, IMO.

This may sound crazy to some, but for me Gore has a certain vibe in common with Jay Peak.  The thing that I love most about skiing at Gore, is Gore itself.  It's not the lodge, or the bar, or the ease of access or any of the amenities. It's what's inside those 400+ acres - the terrain and the people.

If Gore got as much snow as Killington, no contest. But,then again, there would be more people clamoring for condos. Eh, Mother Nature rules again.

Magic is way overhyped. Hickory is better.

Benny Profane wrote

I hate crowds.

Yet you love K-mart.  Benny you are a walking talking skiing contradiction.  Yet I think that I would have good time skiing and drinking a good beer with you.

I had a job for many years that required me working on weekends a lot, 3-4 day weeks. I first started skiing Killington with a mid week pass. I would usually go home on Friday evening against traffic.

I always say that, if I was 9-5 M-F, I would never have really learned to ski. I hate crowds. (heh, my job was in the middle of Manhattan)

All this talk about slopeside condos, what the APA will or won't allow, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah, ignores the fact that several years ago APA gave FrontStreet the permit to build hundreds of ski-in/si-out units, the town gave away big chunks of its park property, the state wasted a boatload of money on the interconnect, and FrontStreet has sold exactly ZERO units.  Gore is an okay intermeidate ski area, mostly for day skiers, and that's about it.  It will never be a destination resort, no matter what they do to it, and no matter who runs it.

Mad River has a few slopeside private homes, but the closest lodgings are a mile away.  Most of the lodgings are several miles away.  It also has almost no snowmaking and what there is rarely gets used after Christmas.  But unlike Gore, it makes money, because it has management that understands skiing, and the best terrain in the East.  ORDA could, in theory, fix the management problem.  Not much anyone can do about the terrain.  Therein lies Gore's Achilles heel.

It is not fair to bring up Mad River as a comparison. That mountain does not sit alone in an island of commerce over there - right down the road is a major mountain, one of the best, Sugarbush, which is the base of the winter economy of the local area. Think of Mad River as a sweet little side show that benefits from the tourist industry that Sugarbush creates. I'd like to see the figures on how many days the Mad River skier skis at Sugarbush, because, you know, he/she, ahem, CAN ski there when it doesn't snow.

ADX wrote

  Gore is an okay intermeidate ski area, mostly for day skiers, and that's about it.  

If you think that you either can't or don't ski the woods.  Gore has the second best glades in the east (after Jay Peak).  

As i've posted in the past Gore does has some major issues with flat spots but they really affect intermediates and snow boarders much more than strong skiers.  Gore is a great place for strong skiers to play in the woods.

I think that says it all AS!!