Gore Mountain Adirondack Express Replacement.

That lift cost 5 million and ran 90% empty 90% of the time.  Having only 2 trails on a trail pod served by a 5 million dollar lift that runs empty is not a good thing.  There is plenty of room there to add trails without becoming Mount Snow.  Also, were you the one that went to Mount Peter last winter?  The trails there are more of an open slope with trees than anything else.  If you have been there more often than once, you will realize how easily that place gets windswept.  It is worse than at Mount Snow.  If all the glades on Burnt Ridge became trails which as Harvey pointed out is likely to happen at some point, there would be much more terrain than there is now, and you still wouldn't be able to see the trail next to you.  Even if they cut a trail in between all the trails mentioned above you still wouldn't have the density that the front side does.

I think a good ole military metaphor is in order. Pretty sure I posted this story the last time this debate came up, but it still applies.

Air Force and Navy both get funding to build new bases. Fully funded for everything, buildings, piers, runway, housing, etc.

What does the Air Force build first? Barracks. They make em' really nice with AC, cable TV, carpet, etc. They run out of money before they build the runway. They go back to congress and say hey we ran out of money. Base isn't much good without a runway. They get runway and nice housing. Everyone wins.

What does the Navy build first? World class piers that can dock the biggest air craft carrier. Every berth has electric, fresh water, sewage, etc. They get around to building their barracks. Ooops ran out of money. They go back to congress and say hey we need money for barracks. Congress says hey thats nice. Your guys and girls are gonna sleep on the ship most of the time anyway. We'll give you enough money to build four walls, a bed, and a head. No AC, no TV, painted cinder block walls and cheap tile floors.

If you've ever stayed on an air force base vs. a navy base you will understand. Their uniforms might look like bus drivers with silly hats, but the air force peeps sleep in nice housing. Navy not so much.

Even if you THINK you have enough money for everything upfront - BUILD THE LIFT FIRST. PERIOD. You run out of money they can't scrub the whole project. They have to fund the rest eventually.

As I recall, Echo had snowmaking on it right away or shortly after BR opened. Sagamore didn't have it for at least the first 3-4 years. It was a bummer that it wasn't open more, but boy was it a real treat when there was enough snow for it to open. What if we had to wait 4 years to get the lift/snowmaking combination? Would that have been worth missing out on Sagamore for 4 years? Not to mention barkeater and cirque? If you say yes, you are crazy. Sorry, but you are crazy.

Some people just don't get the ski bowl. If you are one of those people I feel sorry for you. I do have to agree that a better connection from BR is in order. I'd hate to see barkeater go, but for people that don't do glades, its pretty much a death march to take them down pipeline. If you have a snowboarder with you that you actually like forget it. On this point I can agree with Loco.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Harvey wrote

Question for sno: If Mike tells you that there are funds to cut Barkeater now but the money for snowmaking might come for two or three years in the future should he cut it?

You cut that trail right now without question. This way the project is at least started and partially paid for and that is a catalyst to complete it sooner than later.  There are several trails that have been approved on WF’s UMP that will never be realized. So you put that trail on the mountain now if possible and the rest will follow.

Young dude has some really good ideas for someone his age, plus I dig his passion, but he doesn’t understand how things work yet.

I agree with every ounce of this post.

snoloco wrote

...all the glades on Burnt Ridge became trails which as Harvey pointed out is likely to happen at some point...

No. No. No!

I get the reasoning behind cutting Barkeater even if I don't really want it.  And it probably will happen.

But with Gore at 36 miles of the 40 mile limit and Barkeater already included in the 36 mile count, it would be foolish to turn NY's LONGEST GLADE (Cirque) into another trail.  There are MUCH smarter uses for the 4 miles that remain.

Harvey wrote

It's not realistic to say "we won't put the lift in until we have the cash to run guns up and down the entire slope."  If the Gov gives you the cash for a lift you take it, build it, and you run the lift when you can.

Generally, an appropriation in the state budget must be used for the purpose specified before the end of the third month in the next fiscal year or it is forfeited. In other words, use it or lose it for half a loaf or you end up with no loaf.

If you wait for the state to approve all the money for lift, trail and snowmaking in one shot it will never happen.  You go the incremental approach and eventually it gets done. Hoyt's was well worth the wait.

Totally agree with Harv don't turn Cirque into a trail.  Plenty of room there to cut other trails.  Another one at ski bowl would be nice.

loco said he likes the "occasional" powder day.  I love every powder day and want every day to be a powder day

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

PeeTex wrote

 You want to ski with me one day, sure - I'll go easy, I'll only ask you to drag your ass to the top of Lower Wolf Jaw or Wright. I won't ask you to climb Macomb or Gothics or Saddleback. I won't ask you to spend a few snowy nights in the woods. I am sure you would do fine on the way down, probably make it down well before me, but how will you do on the way up? Will you know how to make sure the terrain is safe? But not to worry, I am not a total A-hole, I won't leave you to die in the woods - I've never left anyone in the woods yet and I sure as hell won't let you drop into an unstable slide cause I don't want to have to dig your sorry ass out - which I would without hesitation.

PeeTex, do you know RonKon or any of the other skitodie crew?

No I don't - something in the back of my mind tells me I may have skied with him once but I don't remember names very well, heck I can't even get my kids names straight. I do know a few folks at the Mountaineer. Never toured with them but have gotten a lot of good advice.

Danzilla wrote

I think a good ole military metaphor is in order.

Yes indeed. But if you were in corporate America and you over ran your project that way you best be looking for a new job, only in Government or in really big companies with institutional Alzheimer's can you get away with that.

snoloco wrote

That lift cost 5 million and ran 90% empty 90% of the time.  Having only 2 trails on a trail pod served by a 5 million dollar lift that runs empty is not a good thing.  There is plenty of room there to add trails without becoming Mount Snow.  Also, were you the one that went to Mount Peter last winter?  The trails there are more of an open slope with trees than anything else.  If you have been there more often than once, you will realize how easily that place gets windswept.  It is worse than at Mount Snow.  If all the glades on Burnt Ridge became trails which as Harvey pointed out is likely to happen at some point, there would be much more terrain than there is now, and you still wouldn't be able to see the trail next to you.  Even if they cut a trail in between all the trails mentioned above you still wouldn't have the density that the front side does.

This thread has gone haywire and tough to follow, but you can't compare Mountain Creek or Mt. Peter to Gore. Seriously. Gore has the fourth most vert in the north-east or something, Peter is fourth from the bottom. Mountain creek gets 50" of snow, Gore three times that. If Mountain Creek didn't have snowmaking it wouldn't open most years!

I love Mount Peter for what it is... great ski school, lodge, friendly people, affordable, cool culture. Honestly nothing that has to do with the trails themselves other than the fact that they resurface and cover them extremely well.

As far as the money to open the ski bowl, surely that 5Mil must include a lot of other things than just the lift. I've never purchased a lift, but if POMA quoted me $5m for a fixed grip at that length I would keep shopping. That said, they are still in a position where they have to spend what's offered. Furthermore, no ski bowl then no burnt ridge either, and then Gore would have a clear shortage of intermediate groomers.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll cut the trails and glades and wait for snow every time.

The 5 million dollar lift was Burnt Ridge, not the Ski Bowl.  I don't like waiting for snow at all.  I want the mountain to make it themselves to get me on the trails ASAP.  My dad says that natural snow is obsolete, he is totally right and I agree 1000% with it.  I would rather have no trail at all than have to see the trail closed sign every time I skied past it.  I would rather have no lift at all than one that rattles in the wind most of the season.  "If you can't cover it, don't cut it."  That's my new saying regarding trail expansions.

Manmade snow is helpful because it forms a base and if you get six inches of nice natural snow you can ski on the trails.  The sport I love (cross country and lifts) is about feeling natural snow under my skis. That's what keeps me skiing every year.  Snoloco I think you and I love different sports!

snoloco wrote

The 5 million dollar lift was Burnt Ridge, not the Ski Bowl.  I don't like waiting for snow at all.  I want the mountain to make it themselves to get me on the trails ASAP.  My dad says that natural snow is obsolete, he is totally right and I agree 1000% with it.  I would rather have no trail at all than have to see the trail closed sign every time I skied past it.  I would rather have no lift at all than one that rattles in the wind most of the season.  "If you can't cover it, don't cut it."  That's my new saying regarding trail expansions.  Mountain Creek isn't perfect and has busted on expansions in the past.  The Great Gorge North section was a total bust and the days that it was closed outnumbered the days that it was open just like the Ski Bowl.  It wasn't open on a consistent full time basis until Intrawest took over in 1998.  They upgraded all the snowmaking and they now have 100% coverage.  That section is now called Granite Peak and still remains a good place to hide from the Vernon Peak and South Peak crowds, a way to connect the two, an expert trail pod, and condo access.  The Ski Bowl will never make sense until something like this is done.

There was a lift at Sugarbush called the North Lynx Poma and it only had natural snow. The trails it services face a bit southerly, and the mountain was never in any rush to staff it, so it didn't run often. I can remember every single run I took on it, not because it was sooo infrequent, but because when it was open the trails were in the most luxurious shape ever. Like any time you cut an edge, the packed powder under your feet seemed like it wanted to burst out from underneath the corduroy.

Now it has a chair and snowmaking and the trails are straighter, there are fewer trees and it gets groomed flat, too. And, you couldn't find me one person that wants to reminisce over how great it was since that stuff happened.

p.s. If natural snow is obsolete why are the only skis that are selling the ones with the brand new tech > 100mm?

So can we stop comparing every mountain to Vernon Valley yet?

Zippy wrote

Manmade snow is helpful because it forms a base and if you get six inches of nice natural snow you can ski on the trails.  The sport I love (cross country and lifts) is about feeling natural snow under my skis. That's what keeps me skiing every year.  Snoloco I think you and I love different sports!

Times ∞

Ok let's compare this to Amtrak's most recent order of new locomotives for the line between Boston and Washington DC.  They needed to replace an entire fleet.  Rather than replacing it in phases, they told congress that they needed money for 70 locomotives.  That is what they needed, that it what they ordered.  They didn't want to start with a smaller order locomotives and then exercise options on that order in the future.  They wanted to get it all done at once and they are doing just that.  Do you replace an aging fleet by ordering replacements all at once, or get them in smaller batches and risk not getting to finish with the project.  Now, do you think out trail expansions carefully and not go forward until you have enough money to finish everything at once, or try to go in phases and risk not finishing.  Amtrak did the former with their locomotive order by not ordering any until they were completely satisfied with what they were getting.  The order has been a success so far and they got the entire project done.  NY tried to go in phases and they botched the project.  Everything should have gotten snowmaking originally and been open consistently on a full time basis.  Like I said earlier, don't cut it if you can't cover it.  Amtrak is government, so it is actually very similar although on a much larger scale.  70 high tech electric locomotives cost a lot more than a ski lift, snowmaking pipe, and labor to cut the trails.  Amtrak didn't say "Let's get 10 locomotives and then get the rest later", they said "We need 70 locomotives and the money to order them".  Why couldn't the people building the ski bowl say "We need money for cutting the trails, building the lift, snowmaking, and grooming."  Instead they were told "Oh just cut the trail now and maybe we can put in snowmaking so people can actually use it later".

We are now comparing skiing to trains?  . This thread is really off the tracks

 Let me simplify this for you.  The world is not a perfect place.  NYS even less so.  Amtrak was able to pull that off because it has an impact on a lot of states and thus got the needed votes.  Orda pretty much just has poor old Betty Little fighting for it so we get what we get and run with it.  It's never going to happen the way you want.  An important lesson to learn is to deal with things as they are not how you wish them to be.

It's important to know what return on investment is.  The ski bowl hasn't brought in any extra money for Gore.  It has been a big money drain.  Windham added a new trail for 2013-2014.  It was open consistently because they had snowmaking right away.  They also added a trail for 2011-2012.  That has snowmaking too.  All other trails in the past that they added had snowmaking.  They have all been open consistently.  Tell me why Windham can do it with no state funding, but ORDA can with state funding.  Amtrak has faced government opposition ever since it was created in 1971.  They still were able to get 70 new electric locomotives even though their only electrified territory is Boston to Washington DC as well as a branch from Philadelphia to Harrisburg.  This was done using taxpayer dollars from the entire country.

Still with the trains....

I already explained it

The states impacted by Amtrak are ma, ri, ct, ny, nj, pa, de, md, va.  That is a hell of a lot of congressional votes supporting it.

When Orda issues come up there are only a few state legislators that care about Orda. We honestly are pretty lucky to get anything so if they offer a lift and no snowmaking you take it.  Once the lift is built snowmaking eventually gets funded.  It's not a private business so things just are done different.  If you can't deal with it just keep skiing at Vernon and start a NJ ski blog devoted to lifts groomers and roller coasters.

Let's move on to something else.

snoloco wrote

 I just did 20.  Let's see how many you can do.

Hahaha..... Go Sno !

Amtrack sucks, the Northeast corridor "bankrolls" it for the entire country where they don't ever bother to use trains. And we pay so much more per mile for the privilege.

Maybe ORDA could learn something from the post office and deliver some more powder days!

OMG I agree with Coach on something.

Sno think of it this way. When you were born you probably had some shortcomings, you were pooping in your diaper and maybe crying all the time.  If your parents said, we don't want no work in progress, we want a kid who is graduating from law school... well you might never been born. Some things take patience.