Love and Fear

billyymc wrote

campgottagopee wrote

billyymc wrote

Can you imagine if it was a group of black people who showed up heavily armed in the streets of Charlottesville,instead of a group of heavily armed white people?

How long would that have been allowed before shots were fired by law enforcement, or the National Guard was called in? Not long I bet. Body bags would have filled quickly.

And if they did they would've been protected by the police just as the KKK were.

BS Camp. No freakin way. If black people walked through public carrying guns like that, no way would they be protected by the police dude.

I call BS to that. The cops that I know do their jobs.

campgottagopee wrote

This violence erupted because we are going to remove a statue of General Robert E. Lee... It wasn't until his death that these monuments were put up to honor his courage and leadership in battle. That was/is the original intent of these monuments... So now, by removing statues that have morphed into what they originally weren't meant to memorialize we are attempting to erase part of our Country's history. By taking flags away, statues away, that's what we are doing. Attempting to erase our Country's history. In this attempt to erase history people were killed. If we didn't take down a silly statue this never would've happened. If we're going to erase history then we need to STOP teaching about slavery, bigotry, racism, to our children in school.

Confederate monuments were mostly erected 100 years ago, long after the end of the Civil War, during a period when Jim Crow laws disenfranchised blacks and lynchings could be done in public.  They were built by the sons of defeated, disenfranchised Confederate fathers to tell the world that they are back in charge, regardless that they lost the war.  Defeated armies don't get to erect monuments to themselves.  The real revisionist history is that these things represent some kind of Southern courage or culture that is admirable.  Nothing could be further from the truth.

No one gets to decide what a symbol means to others. The swastika was a benign symbol until the Nazis chose it.  You can't display a swastika just because you believe it represents the ancient Sumerian ideal of universal enlightenment, even if that were true.  It's the same with Confederate symbols.  A year ago you could have said they represent the Dukes of Hazard, fast cars and hot girls in tight shorts.  Now that the Nazis have picked them up, Confederate symbols have to go.
 
tRump is reprehensible. When he said "on both sides" and that "many fine people" were marching with the Nazis, he forfeited moral leadership forever.  Fine people do not march with the KKK and Nazis.

mm  
 

Milo Maltbie wrote

tRump is reprehensible. When he said "on both sides" and that "many fine people" were marching with the Nazis, he forfeited moral leadership forever.  Fine people do not march with the KKK and Nazis.

Well said.

A good book to understand a little about how the south feels about the confederacy is
Confederates in the Attic
It was written 18 years ago when the alt right was not as prevalent as it is today so it may be a bit dated but it helps to explain why some of these people feel the way they do. It's also very humorous at times. I think most here would find it enlightening.

Robert E. Lee = Darth Vader

He chose the dark side of the force.  He is worthy of study, but not of canonization, due to the fact he was a traitor.  No amount of impressive leadership in the face of insurmountable odds can change that fact.

Also, while he was not as wealthy as his wife's family, his father was a Revolutionary War hero and Governor of Virginia.  So not really modest means.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word/watch/lawrence-what-trump-doesn-t-know-about-robert-e-lee-1025586755891

If Lee had not been a TRAITOR, maybe the Civil War would have ended sooner with many less deaths on both sides. Lee was a slave owner and wanted to continue to own slaves.

Some of you may or may not know a forum member ML. I always enjoyed chatting with ML here as he's very open minded, well spoken, and doesn't try and belittle a person when he disagrees with them. I wish he would start posting again, he's shared with me why he doesn't and I respect his reasons. Anyway, he and I have been emailing back and forth some this morning over the recent happenings in VA. He brought to my attention that the removal of the statue was voted on by the town to celebrate freedom. I didn't know this. I thought it was due to some politician flexing his muscles just to stir shit up. That's why I took the angle I did earlier in this thread. As ML says, one nice thing about having a brain is we can change our minds. That said, I'm changing my mind and this statue and others like it need to come down in honor of freedom. I just hope for everyone's sake if the KKK decides to protest the next removal of a statue that we all stay home. An innocent girl was killed by an act of terrorism by attending a hate rally. A hate rally that never should be allowed to happen but they do. Stay home. Do not poke the bear. Let these scumbags do what they need to do and let our men and women of the police depts do what they are trained to do.

Thanks for reaching out to me ML ---- I know you're out there bro  

I hear what you're saying, Camp, about ignoring them. If everyone left the area a ghost town where they were protesting it would happen in a vacuum and no one would pay attention and the media would likely ignore it as well except for maybe Faux News. That is their constituency after all.
But these guys have a chip on their shoulder. They want attention and they want a fight. Would ignoring them just cause them to take more drastic measures like blowing things up to get attention? Maybe. But the ones wanting a fight and not getting one may be less likely to show up at the next protest. I'm not a social science expert so I don't know what the reaction would be.

I don't know either trackbiker. But at least it would then be in the hands of trained cops and not innocent bystanders. Until we outlaw hate groups from protesting that's the only thing I can think of that would help. I would also say that anyone attending any hate rally, not matter what side of the fence you may be on, better be ready for a fight because inevitably it will happen.

^it's really hard to outlaw hate groups from speaking, and maybe not a good idea

the alt right has been a movement for many years and the white supremacists have caused the most killing in the US for a  significant amount of time

the only way to make change is for people to see the ideas of the hateful

I don't know

I think that if these hate rally's are ignored they would change. Looks what happens to internet assholes once they are ignored. They go away. Once the KKK and other groups like them aren't given the time of day maybe they would stop their shit??? Wishful hoping on my part??? Most likely, but I'm OK with it.

i don't know what to make of this either.  this is quite a shock. the shock to me is how trump reacted in yesterday's news conference

I have always known of the alt right, but this resurgence/visibility is a shock and I am grappling with how society should deal.

I think the most instructive concepts would be to review the rise of fascism in the 30s in genrmany

Yes. One thing that shocked me, and correct me if I';m wrong, but now these freaks who are members of the KKK are protesting with their damn hoods off. They're right out in the open!! They never used to do that, did they? FUCK ME! Why can't we arrest them? What they do is not right! Good God! They're right out in front of us now. I'm glad some of them have lost their jobs due to social media. Fuck those guys man. For once good is coming out of Facebook.

raisingarizona wrote

I'm not so sure that Trump is a racist or he just says things to keep his voter base happy. Narcissistic people are like that, they will say anything if it benefits themselves.

i think a significant component of president trump lashing out in yesterday's presser is that he is really upset about the coverage and reaction to his initial comments relating to both sides, so in true trump fashion, he doubled down in a rather outrageous fashion and called out the "alt right"

people protesting white supremacy are not "alt right".  black lives matter is not "alt right" or a hate group.  nor am i saying that you believe they are.

raisingarizona wrote

I'm not so sure that Trump is a racist or he just says things to keep his voter base happy. Narcissistic people are like that, they will say anything if it benefits themselves.

I believe it is both. He is a racist.  He is also fully aware that probably 12-15% of his 30 something % approval rating is compromised of these racists.  

Numerous times during campaign rallies he openly advocated and condoned violence.  As president he encourage police brutality.  

He is morally depraved and has no honor.

There are 917 hate groups in the US. That's a much smaller number than I would've guessed.

https://www.splcenter.org/hate-map

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/%E2%80%98antifa%E2%80%99-grows-as-left-wing-faction-set-to-literally-fight-the-far-right/ar-AAqgifH?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp#image=AAqgifH_1|3

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/black-power-painted-on-rizzo-statue-after-call-for-removal/ar-AAqgPzd?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=ientp

Harvey wrote

I really respect nepa because in my view, he can't be easily characterized on linear left-right scale.  Because of this I tend to think about what he says..

I used to like nepa more, before he just started insulting me for no reason, then claiming that he was just retaliating (even though he couldn't point to a single time that I insulted him).