NYS electricity costs

Coach Z wrote

Since the tax rate is unlikely going down in NYS in my lifetime and as it takes years to design and build a pipeline the job one of you may lose in the next few years from now is due to Gov Cuomo with PTex's apathy.

If you want to credit me for that than please also credit me for the cleaner water because it is not getting contaminated with the caustic chemicals used in fracking and the cleaner air because of the lack of methane in the air - oh, and please add the lessening of global warming due to the fewer greenhouse gas emissions (methane is a big deal). You could credit me with the inventing of the Internet but Al already took that one

The problem with liberal environmentalists is that they don't understand the whole system. They tend to be academics who take a narrow look, particularly around their discipline and not a total ecosystem view. So much of the "green" technologies are worse than what they are replacing. Big business is learning that they can make a lot of money selling us shit that gets us to actually consume more and get us to think we are being green.

I don't think we can wait on these jobs. We need these HIGH paying jobs so people can make a decent living and provide for their families. Not to mention the dairy farms it would save here in NYS.

That is the argument against fracking
What we are talking about is a pipeline which will bring Nat Gas to NY and New England Lessening the use of burning oil instead.  

Coach Z wrote

That is the argument against fracking
What we are talking about is a pipeline which will bring Nat Gas to NY and New England Lessening the use of burning oil instead.

Wowsers... I think Peetex is about 3 miles ahead of you on this and circling back around to catch you up, although he hasn't specifically stated it...

What sense does it make to support fracking in other states by buying their natural gas from a pipeline?

This is the like the age-old economists philosophy that if we rape and pillage another area to promote our own economy, it will never affect us.  This goes from town to town, state to state, country to country, continent to continent.  It's all the same.  Bringing in natural resources using a poor practices from another area to better your own situation is just as bad as doing it in your own area.  The only difference is you benefit.

When you don't support something, like fracking, you should boycott it.  That means not only disallowing it your region, but not supporting in other regions as well.

Think about how this situation might be different if we were fracking in NY and talking about building a pipeline to PA to supply them natural gas.

Perhaps a bit off topic but related to the NYS economy.

My wife and I were down in the southern-tier this past weekend and I mentioned something about how I thought Steuben county (the county I was raised in) was the poorest in the state.

Well we looked it up.  Not even close.  What county is the poorest per capita?  The Bronx!

I think sometimes us upstaters forget how bad it really is for the poorest of the poor.  Sure, upstate NY is struggling, but there simply aren't the sheer number of people in poverty that there are in the city.  Easy to forget.  Easy to not think about.  I surely didn't think that way.

And the other thing you need to think of is that the difference between the richest of the rich and the poorest of the poor in NYC is much, much, much greater than the same wealth difference in say, Steuben county.

Coach Z wrote

That is the argument against fracking
What we are talking about is a pipeline which will bring Nat Gas to NY and New England Lessening the use of burning oil instead.

So Natural gas is better than oil?
Well not really. Although Natural gas when burned produces less greenhouse effect than the equivalent in oil, natural gas when leaked in the atmosphere is a very strong greenhouse gas. The amount of leakage in both production and transportation is very high. Infact, we are doing more damage with Natural gas than we are getting benefit. They just don't talk about it, but the data is there.

So you want to build a pipeline we don't need to promote an industry that is a bigger polluter than the one it is supposed to replace?

Correct MIKE ,  that was Johnirving wrestles  point in the other thread abour Bernie .

The depth and breath of the income disparity in NYC is READILY visibile .

Moreover the ONE percent crowd has now pushed the MIDDLE CLASS.( who provides the labor force for the city  ) as well as the poorOff Manhattan Island , such that they are displaced and can no longer afford housing .

 The visible disparity and the high concentration of both ends of the insome disparity is much greater in the city whereas here in UPSTATE Ny the ONE PERCENT crowd is barely visible .Yeah we see them in the summer in the Thousan Islands and Placid and the Dacks , but for the most part they are invisible up here , yet their influence on things local is there .

They are taking that gas out if the ground in the Midwest despite what you think of fracking.  It is providing jobs and keeping farms in families in Western PA and Ohio.  Would you prefer the NY benefits from that or some other state does?  You can't stop it so if you bar it NY suffers.  Liberal ideology truely baffles me.  You people have no common sense.

Coach Z wrote

You can't stop it so if you bar it NY suffers.  Liberal ideology truely baffles me.  You people have no common sense.

That is the most lame duck excuse I've ever heard.  Talk about self-fulfilling prophecy.  Of course if you THINK you have no impact on something, you won't.

Coach Z wrote

They are taking that gas out if the ground in the Midwest despite what you think of fracking.  It is providing jobs and keeping farms in families in Western PA and Ohio.  Would you prefer the NY benefits from that or some other state does?  You can't stop it so if you bar it NY suffers.  Liberal ideology truely baffles me.  You people have no common sense.

Jeez Z a similar argument could've been made in NY during those glorious days of slavery.  Screw what's right, just profit no matter the cost.  Right wing ideology truly baffles me.  You people have no common sense.

I am for pipelines cause it's the safest way to move that crap around. The whole country should be connected with pipelines. Who knows down the road they can be used to move water around.

Coach Z wrote

They are taking that gas out if the ground in the Midwest despite what you think of fracking.  It is providing jobs and keeping farms in families in Western PA and Ohio.  Would you prefer the NY benefits from that or some other state does?  You can't stop it so if you bar it NY suffers.  Liberal ideology truely baffles me.  You people have no common sense.

Just because your neighbor shits in his well doesn't mean you have to drink his water. You just have to hope his well doesn't contaminate yours

You can not ignore the high percentages of homeowners who burn oil for heat in New England. Oil is dirtier and more expensive than natural gas. Fracked oil also throws off tons of natural gas that in many cases is not captured. Just like natural gas, oil does not magically appear in your tank. By denying the pipeline, Cuomo is saying FU to all the residents stuck with oil in New England. If you think the answers for heat are solar or a geothermal heat pump, you are dreaming.

Link

"In New England, reliance on oil is even greater. The percentage of households heating with oil is 64.2 in Maine, 46.1 in New Hampshire, 43.8 in Vermont, 43.7 in Connecticut, 32.6 in Rhode Island, and 29.2 in Massachusetts. The national average is just 5.5 percent, driven up by New England.  Massachusetts consumes the third-most residential heating oil of any state. Connecticut ranks fourth.

Beyond the environmental harm from inefficiently burning heating oil, why is New England’s “pie” so unacceptable?  Because it costs much more than everyone else’s, and for no good reason.

According to the Energy Information Administration, on a million British thermal unit basis (MMBtu), delivered oil is consistently more than twice as expensive as delivered natural gas.  Delivered oil cost over $30 in 2013-14, about $24 in 2014-15, and is projected to cost $22 in 2015-16.  The price of delivered natural gas was less than $10 in 2013-14, dropped slightly in 2014-15, and is projected to fall to around $9 in 2015-16.

What does this mean for a typical New Englander?  The Energy Information Administration says a Northeast household consumes 850 to 1,200 gallons of heating oil in winter.  In 2013-14 (the Polar Vortex winter), that oil cost $3.88/gallon.  Thus, Northeast homes using oil spent about $3,298 to $4,656 on heating.  A Northeast household using natural gas consumed 84.1 thousand cubic feet (Mcf) at $11.55/Mcf, for a total cost of just $971.  If yours is one of the roughly 40 percent of homes stuck using heating oil, you could have spent $3,685 more than your neighbor on heating.  Compared to your sister in Ohio using natural gas ($766), you could have spent $3,890 more.  Compared to your cousin in Oregon ($460), you may have spent $4,196 more. How is that acceptable?  Have we failed some regional IQ test?"

Also, there are many people who get assistance to buy heating oil. In Massachusetts it was 183,000 households in 2014.

"Another critical fact is that a large proportion of people forced to use oil, and some who use natural gas, desperately need public heating assistance.  For example, Massachusetts provided low-income heating assistance to over 183,000 households in 2014, has a 2015 LIHEAP budget of over $146 million, and rarely has enough money.  The Massachusetts Department of Housing and Community Development found: “The rising cost of heating oil and high utility prices disproportionately affect the low-income population of the Commonwealth” and “that households with income below 100 percent of the Federal Poverty Level spend … 8.5 percent to 10 percent [of their income] on home heating bills alone.”  Connecticut’s Consumer Advocate reported recently that one-sixth, or 218,850, of Eversource’s Connecticut customers are non-hardship customers who cannot afford to pay their bills."

I switched from oil to natural gas 3 years ago. In 2014 I estimated that my oil bill would have been $2600, my gas bill was $843. It is easy to justify the switch with such large savings.

Great post X

Unfortunately liberals lose their ability to do math or rationalize facts when thier idoilogy conflicts with reality.  That the people in Ohio are all for fracking is irrelevant as all liberals know better than them what's right for the masses.  Just as the thousands in extra costs they force on the residents of NY and New England.  They will then say the govt should do more to help the poor when they inflicted this on them to start with.

Liberals were born with extra feeling sensors and no common sense what so ever.

The extreme right and the extreme left often seem like the exact same thing to me suffering from the exact same ailments and way to stubborn to realize it.

Hate to group people up like Coach just did, but this is a response to him, so, fuck it.

The problem with conservatives is that they have no way to respond to the tragedy of the commons (look it up, don't feel like linking). They can't solve easily solvable problems because they don't recognize collective action as a valid method.

Take Trump for instance. There was a collective problem last summer (he might win the nomination), but because every other candidate was acting in his own self interest (and the idiotic belief that Trump couldn't win), the problem just never got solved.

Similarly, when presented with the very real problem of global warming, republicans like Coach act in their own self interest ("gotta keep prices low!") and their own idiotic beliefs ("global warming doesn't exist!") to doom us all.

Thankfully, people like Coach aren't the majority in this country and, because of that, I feel fairly confident in predicting that Trump won't win.

can you switch to nat gas if you have oil now without replacing furnace?  can you modify your furnace?  

I'm certain you can convert a oil furnace to gas but my guess is it wouldn't be very efficient. Best bang for your buck would be to replace with gas.