Solar power taking off

Nothing beats a good idea. Two heads are better than one. Many people connected - even better. New inventions in info sharing/connectivity often bring revolutions in life.

The printing press aided the renaissance. Newspapers, pamphlets boosted the American revolution and democracy. Radio, Railroads, TV, interstates and now the internet move things along even better. When info flows, others take it and spawn new ideas.

Here's one that holds promise. We seriously need to move solar rapidly along. Hope this catches on, drives the industry forward with jobs, innovations and reductions in cost.

http://www.rr.com/video/2154763424

http://solarmosaic.com/

What a great idea this is. Using the internet/tv bringing interested people together to help solve a very major issue. It's sorta like the " Cloud " computing concept that we hear so much of now. Maybe that was the genesis for this idea.

According to the video, the solar industry now employees more people than the coal or us steel industry. There are vast numbers of buildings in the USA the receive plenty of sunshine to make solar power very successful and very profitable. Together, people could finance solar installation on them and also get their money back.

Win/win.

I likes it!!! Nothing beats a great idea and people working together. I'll be buying in.  

Want to know what's unfortunate? Solar panels are extremely inefficient. We're talking, on an average consumer scale here, 13% efficiency (as in, of all the energy that is available from the sun, only 13% of it can be absorbed and used for energy.)

If I was to install a solar system on my home, where the infrastructure for regular electricity is already in place, it would take over 18 years to pay itself off. Not including installation fees. So that price, plus whatever percentage that SolarMosaic is going to take, it's not gonna be cheap.

From my lab write up:

"On the following page are results from PVWatts  showing the energy produced and money saved by installing (20) Sharp ND-216uC1 solar panels in two different locations - Saratoga Springs, NY and Palo Alto, CA. The results show the energy produced and money saved in one year with the 4.3kW system.  At my home, the system would save approximately $726 a year. If the system was installed at Palo Alto, CA, It would save $724. At a price of $675 per panel, the 20 panel system would cost $13,500. This means that it would take over 18.5 years for the system to pay itself off and start saving money. "

That being said, I didn't watch the entire videos. All I saw was someone invests in money for one places to install solar panels.

And an interesting fact. A solar panel to an LED is similar to a generator to an electric motor. One's input is the other's output and vice versa.

NJ had some incredible incentives to install solar about 10 years ago.  Some (smart) friends who knew about the incentives and could afford it layed out $20,000 for a $75,000 system. The state paid the rest.

While the installation incentives are gone, there is a provision that requires PSE&G (the big electric company) to either produce 20% of their energy from renewable sources or pay for it at 2x the market rate.

So, all day long when nobody is home Bob and Anne's energy meter spins backwards and PSEG buy juice from them at a very high price. They pay nothing for electric and get a check every quarter. 2nd and 3rd quarters are the most profitable. (You want long sunny days with the sun high in the sky, but if it gets too hot the panels lose efficiency.)  The winter checks are about $300 and summer checks are around $1000. It took about 5 years to pay off the $20,000 and the rest they put it a college fund for their two boys.  They aren't worried about college because even if they are short, they can use the panels to make payments on loans.

Still what Fuje says is right. The "smart" money is saying that the gov't shouldn't invest in buying the current panels but should push the technology to be more efficient.

China is eating our shorts.  They have tons of cash and every year are installing more panels than the entire installed base in the US.  Germany is second. We are third and falling behind.

I guess I wasn't aware of some of the incentives offered! Damn.

I still think Wind energy is more viable than solar. In the ADKs, we definitely get more wind than we to sunshine. And sunshine isn't cranking overnight, either.

My lab TA last year had a pretty ingenious idea. Place wind turbines up high in between buildings where the structures create wind tunnels.

fujative wrote

 My lab TA last year had a pretty ingenious idea. Place wind turbines up high in between buildings where the structures create wind tunnels.

Not a new idea, but a good one. Buildings have been drawn up where special wind turbines, sorta like our box fans at home only bigger, would be installed down the side of tall buildings, one above the other in a stack. There is lots of wind in between buildings. There are many places/buildings these could be installed on and green electricity generated.

Tell your TA to keep pluggin along.

Harv wrote

China is eating our shorts.  They have tons of cash and every year are installing more panels than the entire installed base in the US.  Germany is second. We are third and falling behind.

Yepper. They will have a big advantage over us. Energy,esp. cheap energy is "THE PRIZE!" the one that makes all other things possible.

Cheap solar/green energy will equal " Ah the livin is good!!! We have the top economy."

Soon to be really Expensive fossil fuel energy will equal " Sonofabitch! We can't afford anything,healthcare, roads, schools, fun, food, etc"

The often offered arguement " It takes too long to get my money back " is a very narrow and somewhat selfish view. There are many more large advantages to green/solar power. The big reduction in pollution/ greenhouse gases, conserving fossil fuel and breaking ground driving the industry along factor while fundamentally changing, possibly solving a huge problem for mankind by helping to drive down the cost of solar panels. Remember when analog VCRs were over $500 ? They got as low as $50 before DVRs came out.

The 13% solar efficiency number is incorrect. Companies have achieved 15-20% and one certified at 40.9% efficiency.

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/02/17/high-efficiency-solar-cells-getting-more-efficient-cheaper

Indeed, " efficiency " rate is a bit of a misnomer here and would better be expressed as conversion rate. In that, 20% of solar converted/utilized is far different than a natural gas furnace operating at only 20% efficiency. That would waste 80% of the natural gas as it was burnt, consumed and not captured for heat, thus lost.

With solar, the sun is gonna shine anywho so nothing is lost, why not install 20%+ conversion rate solar panels? In fact, for billions of years the Sun has shown even though there were no solar panels anywhere. The Sun will continue to shine for millions more years regardless if solar panels are ever installed or not. Anyone think fossil fuels will supply man that long?
 
Citing solar's 20% or so " efficiency " rate misleads some people who are, let's say old school, combustion type thinkers. That incorrectly casts a bad light on the industry and dampens people's enthusiasm.

Are you making any money off your standard home electrical system now ? Ever get your money back from you car? Your boat ? Your hobby ?

Even with 20% conversion rate solar panel, one will get their money back and even make money. Electric rates will go up, hastening the pay back. Electric companies, until now, have not had to pay a dollar per dollar rate to home electricity producers. They pay less for electricity produced by home owners than they charge for electricity consumed by home owners. This will likely change soon as Harv noted above, citing a possible 2x the going rate return for home electricty produced. That equals Cha-Ching baby!!!

Then the solar panel system will be paid off very quickly and bank accounts bolstered!

Just think about all those roof tops you see when you fly. Millions upon millions upon millions of them exist in the Sunbelt.
Oh, what vast amounts of green electricity they could yield!

Solar power shingles are also being made, for a more cosmetic installation.

BUT we need to get over these negative fibs we have and resurrect America's Can Do Spirit.

Americans can afford to invest in projects like Solar Mosiacs. Personally, I will and I don't even care if they pay me back. I'ld rather they reinvest it, pay it forward instead of whining " It takes too long to get repaid ". The situation is getting too critical for that selfish attitude.

Now back to the original post were I wrote the familiar, " two heads are better than one ". An example has ocurred here....

If Harv is correct and PSE&G may have to pay twice the going rate , states like NJ could be a great place for Solar Mosiacs to invest as they could recoup investments faster and THEN reinvest quicker, moving the cause along quicker.

Good idea Him Say. It pays to think outside the box.

We need that famous American Can Do Spirit.

I live about 70 miles north of Harv in NJ. I looked at solar 5 years ago when the state was offering a lot of incentives to install solar (the program ran out of money). I have a small house and do not use a lot of electricty. My smaller system still would have taken about 11 years to pay off (at that time). PSEG uses net metering. You dump in excess power during the day (hopefully) and you take out less from the grid at night. If you put more in than you took out you get credit or payment at the end of the year at the wholesale rate that PSEG avoided paying (less than the retail rate you pay). Maybe this is different in other states.They also are now offering 10 yr loans at 6.5% for 40-60% of the cost. NJ Board of Public Utilities has created the Solar Renewable Energy Certificate (SREC) which is recorded each time your system generates 1000 kilowat hours, has value and is tradeable. These units are applied to the loan until the loan is paid off. They then become yours. The floor price for a SREC if you entered the system today is $400.

While Snowball articulates a great number of reasons to go solar, the finances are just not there yet for me. My electric bill averages about $70/month. I cannot afford to tie up $20,000 or more plus maint. and missed investment income in a project that might pay off in 11 years or longer (by today's available financing).

One more fun item about solar: after a certain temp the hotter it gets the less electricity generated. My house has a very steep roof facing south. The system might not generate as much as advertised due to the heat accumulating on my roof during hot summer days. This is exactly when the sun perfectly matches the roof angle and it might not be able to generate the max.

Today the most useful solar system is hot water generation for baseboard hot water or hot water for living. However if you have access to natural gas these systems also can take a long time to pay off as natural gas is super cheap right now and looks to remain at these levels due to massive finds in the US including NY and PA.

I think solar is a great thing but until the Federal govt puts in as many incentives and /or tax breaks as fossil fuels have solar is never going to never explode like it should.

We have just powered up our rooftop solar installation in Bergen county, NJ. Installed to own for $28,800 rated at 9455 Watt. pvWatts calculator approximates 12500 kWh generated per year.

With 30% Federal tax credit, out of pocket cost will be down to just over $20K. Provided utility electric price being 15 to 20 cents and SREC's (1000 kWh certificates) sold for $200, we are looking to pay off in 5 years.