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Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

snoloco
JTG4eva! wrote
Sno....did u do the top to bottom (Sky-Niagara-Victoria-Shoot-Easy Street-Boreen) non-stop?  Of course the alt is U/L Valley instead of Easy Street/Boreen.  Either way, that is a helluva non-stop run!
I've gone top t2b at Whiteface without stopping quite a bit.  However, I prefer to stay on the upper mountain most of the time.  One of my t2b runs on Sunday was off Skyward and the other off Paron's.

The report now shows snowmaking on the Lower Skyward-Weber's Way loop.  That would be good to get open because Niagara is kind of a choke point and much narrower than Skyward.  Skyward and Niagara would be rated double black anywhere else.  I normally figure that Whiteface trails ski one rating up of what they're signed compared to other mountains.  Definitely a "core" kind of place.  My legs were burning all day yesterday because I skied the hardest I had all season on Sunday.

The crowds weren't even a consideration when skiing the upper lifts.  They actually shut down the racer chair at 2:30, when normally it stays open till 3:30 because no one was riding it as Draper's sucked and anyone who went below mid station could get on the gondola or Facelift with no line.  I could see the gondola line was quite long earlier, but probably no more than 10 minutes, and the Facelift appeared to be running full for part of the day.

They have a very deep base in most areas and should there be r*in next week, they'll be in much better shape than many mountains, especially Gore.  Now we just need them to move snowmaking to Lookout once the weather gets cold again, and get more great terrain in the mix.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

Snowballs
Banned User
Cover it to Hoyt's and then down. Call it good.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

raisingarizona
Ski runs that have snowmaking and are groomed are not double diamonds.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

D.B. Cooper
raisingarizona wrote
Ski runs that have snowmaking and are groomed are not double diamonds.
AGREED!  2x should have some of these characteristics:
- jumping a cornice to get to the trail
- having to plan turns (e.g. saying to one's self, "right by the treeline, lift ski to avoid rock then put arms up to block branches/turn uphill immediately and hope there's nothing behind those branches").
- avalanche danger is standard
- having to know where crevasses exist

I would say beacons, but those are needed for heli-skiing and not all heli-ski terrain is 2x.
Sent from the driver's seat of my car while in motion.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

JohnIrvingwrestles
D.B. Cooper wrote
raisingarizona wrote
Ski runs that have snowmaking and are groomed are not double diamonds.
AGREED!  2x should have some of these characteristics:
- jumping a cornice to get to the trail
- having to plan turns (e.g. saying to one's self, "right by the treeline, lift ski to avoid rock then put arms up to block branches/turn uphill immediately and hope there's nothing behind those branches").
- avalanche danger is standard
- having to know where crevasses exist

I would say beacons, but those are needed for heli-skiing and not all heli-ski terrain is 2x.
Skier wise, I agree with the above but placing a 2x on Skyward & Cloudspin would be practical in steering less able skiers from hopping in those steeper single x trails.  On weekends they both get gobbed up with people in over their heads.  Similar type trails - Rumor& Lies @ Gore along with Hunter west trails have the firm warning signs which pretty effectively deter skiers of lesser abilities from getting in over their heads.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

raisingarizona
In reply to this post by D.B. Cooper
Maybe throw in a gap jump over a pool filled with sharks that have laser beams attached to their heads and some amazon tribes men hiding in the trees with blow darts.

But seriously, a groomed double diamond? Really? Is that like a participation award?
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

Thacheronix
I recommend orange netting on all double blacks
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

JTG4eva!
This post was updated on Jan 18, 2017; 8:09pm.
Sno, some day you will look back on these threads and think.....'WTF was I thinking?  I was so clueless!'

You make me chuckle!  Niagara a 'choke point'.  Upper Skyward and Niagara double black 'anywhere else'.  Ha, these are right up there with the 'crazy long lift lines everywhere at Whiteface' ever.  

Not!  Not!  Not!

Yes, Niagara might seem narrower than Skyward, which itself is a relative 6 lane skiing super highway.  Yes, Cloudspin and Upper Sky come together at Niagara. These do not a 'choke point' make.  For starters, even at narrower (which I'm not convinced it is), Niagara is still pretty darn wide.  Secondly, of the hundreds of time I've skied it I don't think I've ever been on it with more than a couple other people, holidays included.  You'd have people believe that this is a congested slope funneling lots of people together.  Just like your mythical long lines....just not true.

As for double blacks, you haven't lived and skied enough to make such a statement.  Drop a few 40+ degree, rock lined, hourglass chutes off a 5 foot cornice and come back and talk to me about double blacks.  Whiteface has it right with only the Slides and glades being double black.  Upper Skyward and Niagara can be tough, but often they are not, and while they may not always be fun, they are never (when open) truly difficult for expert skiers.  No, these should not be double blacks.  Maybe some other places, in the truest sense of 'relative to other slopes at the mountain', would rate this terrain double black.....but that just dumbs down double blacks.
We REALLY need a proper roll eyes emoji!!
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

snoloco
I can't believe you're trying to discredit the expert terrain at Whiteface, which I think is the best in the east hands down.

The trail ratings are all relative to the rest of the mountain, not based on standard dimensions like you seem to think.

Skyward is steeper and more sustained than most eastern trails that are rated double black.  Not saying I can't ski it comfortably.  It's one of my favorite trails at Whiteface, or anywhere for that matter.  Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

D.B. Cooper
In reply to this post by raisingarizona
raisingarizona wrote
Maybe throw in a gap jump over a pool filled with sharks that have laser beams attached to their heads and some amazon tribes men hiding in the trees with blow darts.
Well done.
Sent from the driver's seat of my car while in motion.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

D.B. Cooper
In reply to this post by snoloco
snoloco wrote
I can't believe you're trying to discredit the expert terrain at Whiteface, which I think is the best in the east hands down.

The trail ratings are all relative to the rest of the mountain, not based on standard dimensions like you seem to think.

Skyward is steeper and more sustained than most eastern trails that are rated double black.  Not saying I can't ski it comfortably.  It's one of my favorite trails at Whiteface, or anywhere for that matter.  Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
Sno, I think you are way off here.  I don't think the 47% is right either.  I won't ask the gnarliest trails you've skied, but suffice it to say that you should know when you're on a double black.....'cause you'll be ducking blow darts.
Sent from the driver's seat of my car while in motion.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

raisingarizona
In reply to this post by snoloco
snoloco wrote
I can't believe you're trying to discredit the expert terrain at Whiteface, which I think is the best in the east hands down.

The trail ratings are all relative to the rest of the mountain, not based on standard dimensions like you seem to think.

Skyward is steeper and more sustained than most eastern trails that are rated double black.  Not saying I can't ski it comfortably.  It's one of my favorite trails at Whiteface, or anywhere for that matter.  Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
Well shit, I stand corrected.

So are you on belay and carry an ice axe for self arrest when you drop into these extreme ski groomers? I hope so. One wrong move and you might end up dead.

Be safe young man, I had no idea but now I fear for your life now. God speed teen jedi.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

snoloco
In reply to this post by D.B. Cooper
D.B. Cooper wrote
snoloco wrote
I can't believe you're trying to discredit the expert terrain at Whiteface, which I think is the best in the east hands down.

The trail ratings are all relative to the rest of the mountain, not based on standard dimensions like you seem to think.

Skyward is steeper and more sustained than most eastern trails that are rated double black.  Not saying I can't ski it comfortably.  It's one of my favorite trails at Whiteface, or anywhere for that matter.  Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
Sno, I think you are way off here.  I don't think the 47% is right either.  I won't ask the gnarliest trails you've skied, but suffice it to say that you should know when you're on a double black.....'cause you'll be ducking blow darts.
I got it all off Google Earth's elevation data.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

JTG4eva!
This post was updated on Jan 18, 2017; 9:36pm.
In reply to this post by snoloco
I'm not discrediting anything, and I agree that Whiteface has great advanced/most difficult terrain.  I also know full well that trail ratings are supposed to be relative to other trails at that mountain, and not some universal standard.

That said, I still maintain Whiteface has it right, in terms of both ratings relative to the mountain, as well as comparable terrain out there at other mountains that you'll see rated as double black.  

As with more than a few of your analyses.....you aren't seeing the whole picture, completely.  And you have some facts wrong.

Mountain Run, at 26 degrees (49%) for ~620' vertical, is not comparable to Outer Limits, at 29.5 degrees (57%) for ~1,100' vertical.....or to Double Dipper for  that matter, at 31 degrees (60%) for 625' vertical.  So, if you want to use Killington as a benchmark then Mountain Run is definitely not a double black.  Does anyone here, including you, think it should be?

So, let's look at Upper Skyward.  It's very much the same at Mountain Run in many respects, in that it has the same 26 degree (49%) slope, just for ~730' vertical.  What sets Upper Skyward apart is the headwall, which is 30 degrees (58%) for the first 400' vertical.  Is that top section enough to warrant a double black rating?  It's a valid debate, but having skied a lot of double black terrain in a lot of places that is significantly more difficult....I maintain they have it right.  And for the most part (other than the short head wall) Skyward isn't really any more difficult, relatively speaking, than Mountain Run.

None of that disparages the terrain, which is great.  It's just a complete, objective evaluation of fact.

Rumor and Lies as double black...well, here is where relative to other trails at Gore becomes a factor.  The headwall is only 28 degrees for ~300 vertical (compared to U Skyward's 30 degrees for 400'), mellowing to 25 degrees for ~600' vertical (compared to U Skyward's 26 degrees for more than 700' vertical), yet Rumor is rated double black and U Skyward isn't, even though U Skyward is more difficult.  Fair?  You be the judge.  I think it's fair, as Rumor and Lies are much more difficult relative to other Gore blacks than Skyward is to other WF blacks (see U Sky to Mt. Run comparison), IMHO.

Just an observation.....when evaluating terrain for risk in the backcountry anything 30 degrees or less is considered mellow terrain.

I'll also comment on RA's wonderment at groomed terrain as a double black.  Tilt anything enough, even if sometimes groomed, and I think double black can be legit.  However, natural features (waterfalls, cliffs, etc.) in areas that can't be groomed (and also get bumped up as a result) can be a big factor in something rating double black.  While the Slides are generally in the low to mid 30 degree range, both relative to WF slopes AND given many of the terrain features I think they are legit double blacks.....although not as difficult as double blacks I've skied elsewhere.
We REALLY need a proper roll eyes emoji!!
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

snoloco
I found Outer Limits to be 46% on Google Earth.

I think the range of terrain that Whiteface has rated black is quite wide.  Everything rated single black on LWF I think is accurately rated, but the black rated terrain off the Summit and Lookout lifts is harder, as it's either steeper, more sustained, or both.

I don't like the blue/black rating because it isn't as effective at keeping people off of terrain they can't handle as a single black rating is.

I'd say that upping Hoyt's, LBO, Skyward, and Cloudspin to double black would be fair, as long as The Slides are specially rated triple black (like Black Hole at Smuggs).  I also think that Victoria, Wilmington trail, and the pitch on Paron's should be rated single black, and the Boreen Headwall should be changed from green to blue.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

JTG4eva!
Sno....you should stop using slope %.  Yes, it's a valid measure, but fairly useless in the ski world.  It's generally not how ski slopes are evaluated.  Tell someone you are skiing a 100% slope and 95% of non-engineer types will have no clue what you are talking about.  On the other hand, tell anyone you are skiing a 45 degree slope and everyone will know what you mean.
We REALLY need a proper roll eyes emoji!!
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

D.B. Cooper
In reply to this post by snoloco
snoloco wrote
Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
What is the diff between grade and slope %?
Sent from the driver's seat of my car while in motion.
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

campgottagopee
In reply to this post by raisingarizona
raisingarizona wrote
 

Well shit, I stand corrected.

So are you on belay and carry an ice axe for self arrest when you drop into these extreme ski groomers? I hope so. One wrong move and you might end up dead.

Be safe young man, I had no idea but now I fear for your life now. God speed teen jedi.
LMFAO

That was beautiful man
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

tjf1967
In reply to this post by raisingarizona
Ha.  I went off the lip on skiers right at the top of sky, my ski popped off,you better know how to self arrest or you are going for a ride.  I ended up a 100 yards from where I wiped.  No biggie really but if I did not flip over and dig in would have been gone.  Who gives a shit about the rating system.  There are trails I will ski and trails I will no.  That is my rating.  At this point in life give me a 30 degree bowl with two feet of powder and I will be content all day long.  
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Re: Whiteface 1/15/17 (Admitting I was wrong)

JTG4eva!
In reply to this post by D.B. Cooper
D.B. Cooper wrote
snoloco wrote
Skyward to Niagara is a 47% grade for 1200 vertical feet.  Lies is rated double black and only 39% grade over 490 vertical.  Even Rumor is only 44% grade over 590 feet.  Mountain Run is comparable to Outer Limits at Killington in terms of pitch.
What is the diff between grade and slope %?
I'm no mathematician or engineer, but I'll try and explain the way I see it, in layman's terms.

Ok, rudimentary math first.  Slope Percent is the ratio of vertical distance to horizontal distance, multiplied by 100 to convert to percentage.  Slope degree is the Arctan of the ratio of vertical distance to horizontal distance.  Damn, that's worse than doing 8th grade common core new Algebra with my son!

In layman a terms, the slope percentage isn't really that confusing I guess.  Measure vertical and horizontal distances travelled as you move up a slope, and convert to %.  While simple to calculate, the percentage derived doesn't mean all that much to people in the skiing world.  Engineers?  Sure.  Skiers?  Maybe not so much.  Really, tell someone you skied a 100% slope and most skiers will look at you like you've got five heads.  Now tell a skier that you skied a 45 degree slope?  Heck, any skier worth his salt will know you are a badass.  When traveling up a slope of 45 degrees the amount of vertical you gain and the amount of horizontal distance you travel will be the same, a 1:1 ratio, 100%.

That said, slope percent is easier to calculate, because who the f' knows what an Arctan is???
We REALLY need a proper roll eyes emoji!!
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