Whiteface, Saturday 02/04/2017

So basically no one can explain why there are these limits on ski trail mileage. Ok, ya that all makes so much sense! :D

raisingarizona wrote

So basically no one can explain why there are these limits on ski trail mileage. Ok, ya that all makes so much sense! :D

I'm with you, RA. I think they're silly.

Back when they were first enacted, no one really knew what skiing was going to become.  They thought development of skiing terrain could eventually get out of hand, so they put a cap on it.  Originally, the mileage limits were 30 miles for Gore and 20 for Whiteface and Belleayre.  In preparation for the Olympics, they raised Gore to 40 miles and Whiteface to 25.  I'm guessing those numbers were arbitrary and they seemed big at the time, and there wasn't any consideration for if/when they'd be reached.  That would be my best explanation.

Whiteface as it exists today was originally just on Little Whiteface.  In preparation for the Olympics, Mountain Run was widened, Thruway and Parkway were added with the Freeway lift, and Skyward and Cloudspin were added on the true summit.  Kids Kampus was also added around that time.

Since then, they cut Paron's Run and Follies on the summit, making it accessible to intermediates.  This was done around the time they replaced the lift in the 90's.  They also added Draper's, which was specifically designed for new racing standards that Lower Thruway and Parkway didn't meet.  I think this was done around 2001.  The Lookout terrain was all approved in 2004.  This included Wilmington, Hoyt's, LBO, and a trail on the other side of the lift from Hoyt's that wasn't cut.  There may have been a connector to the Summit Quad in the mix also.  This expansion was designed to fully build out their trail mileage.  Wilmington and LBO opened in January 2009.  Hoyt's didn't have snowmaking and was only open a few days until they added it in 12-13.

IMO, raising the mileage limits is a low priority.  Both mountains went overboard trying to build them out as fast as humanly possible and didn't think about how they were going to cover the new terrain.  Now that it's mostly done, they should focus on upgrading snowmaking and trying to get more open earlier, which will bring in $$$ during Christmas Week and help the local economy.

Whiteface should cut the final Lookout trail and add a real connector off Hoyt's to the Summit Quad.  They really don't need to add anything else.  The lift situation is pretty much perfect also.  Upgrade snowmaking and focus on getting more open earlier.

Ok, I get what you are saying but what about your trail ideas for Gore, I thought something along those lines makes sense and could help bring money in for the community in NC if it was done well.

Anyways, the trail mileage limit is an archaic idea, I don't see why there should be any issues within the designated boundaries of the ski areas. I'm not for cutting up everything like the front side of Mount Snow but if it makes sense to have a few more trails and glades then do it. Putting a number like 25 miles of trail is like the magical 15 dollar minimum wage number, who comes up with this stuff?!? :D

I don't like high density trail layouts because everything skis exactly the same.  The Mt Run section of Whiteface is the only part of the mountain like this, which is a product of multiple Olympic events being centered there.

On the other hand, I don't like very low density trail layouts either because you don't get the most use out of the lift and the few trails there are will get crowded.  Lookout Mountain at Whiteface and Burnt Ridge at Gore come to mind here.  The front side and North Side at Gore and the Summit at Whiteface are laid out about perfect in terms of trail density.

 

raisingarizona wrote

So basically no one can explain why there are these limits on ski trail mileage. Ok, ya that all makes so much sense! :D

When it was created, protection for the ADK park was written into the State's Constitution, the famous " forever wild " clause. Very forward thinking for the time and even now. It was done this way as the pro-protection peeps did not trust the anti-protection peeps.

So, when changes to land use is sought, a Constitutional Amendment is sometimes required as for these ski mtns AND even the Northway interstate thru the park. This is where the mileage limits came from. They were spelled out for the Constitutional Amendment voting process, legislative and public.

The " Forever Wild " clause is generally seen as a very good thing.

Now it makes sense, even wise, eh ?

Oh yea Burnt Ridge is a disaster.

Your trail will get built. It is on the Masterplan, drawn in red. It will be Abenaki or Barkeater or both.  Until then the boundary-to-boundary skiers of Gore will try to find a way to enjoy, choosing from 2 trails and 4 glades, all over 1400 vert and a mile in length.  

I think that pod has really good bones. After they cut Abenaki, the pod will still be pretty cool, not quite as unique, and a little bit more like every other mountain. I'm sure it will be popular. I'm sure I will like it too.

Ha! I think Harv just got done having a killer day in the Gore trees and doesn't like the idea of anything changing the Gore he loves as is! When it has the snow I imagine it's a really fun place to be.  

Harvey wrote

Until then the boundary-to-boundary skiers of Gore will try to find a way to enjoy, choosing from 1 trail and 4 glades, all over 1400 vert and a mile in length.  

FIFY, Echo is closed for racing more than its open.

I've been on there once all of this season because Sagamore wasn't open and Echo was either a train wreck or closed for racing.  I haven't seen any of the glades reported open either.

I have on multiple occasions outlined different trail arrangements to make that section more useful.  You could fully build it out to my master plan and have just as many or more glades as you have now.  My Abenaki route would be a green, allowing skiers of all ability levels to move between the Ski Bowl and main base.  Pipeline, Cedars, and Eagle's Nest would also be made green.  At least one trail beyond that which would be blue or black depending on pitch would also be added, and hopefully not clear cut any glades.  I know your sentiment in that it won't be as unique with more trails, but you just can't have a section with a HSQ and 1 trail (Echo is closed for racing more than its open).  I'm not sure if you've been on Sagamore when Echo is closed for racing.  I have, and it was almost as crowded as Sunway.  Not fun.

Lookout Mountain has very few trails, but at least they are never closed for racing.

Are you serious Sno ? Why are you whining about Echo for crying out loud ? Echo is lame as hell. A true one and done trail. If the racers are happy there, Good ! Then they're not on Twister, a much, much better trail than Echo.

Get off the Echo whine will ya.

I agree.  I wasn't whining about it being closed often.  Just pointing out that it is.  Echo sucks anyways.  Can't lap it without an annoying runout at the bottom.  Often skied off to bare ice because they blow it wet because of the racing.  The upper portion used to be a fun high speed cruiser, before they started trying to keep it icy for racing.  Twister is just a better trail.

Problem is that some people still skied it when it wasn't closed, keeping them off Sagamore, and they can't do that now.

The Wilmington Trail is probably the most similar trail to Echo at Whiteface.  I think it's way better.  It's twice as long, has better views, and better snow conditions.  Yes it takes 2 lifts to lap, but there isn't any portion of it that requires one to push with their poles to ski.  I can't think of anywhere else in the east where you can ski a 2800 vertical run continuously without any annoying trail intersections or a long runout.

raisingarizona wrote

Ha! I think Harv just got done having a killer day in the Gore trees and doesn't like the idea of anything changing the Gore he loves as is! When it has the snow I imagine it's a really fun place to be.

Killer day in those very trees sno wants to turn into a trail.  I said I was ok with it.

Gore is unique and very cool.  It will get less unique as all the problems are "fixed."  And I'll still like it ok.

One thing is that it took the state nearly 50 years to be able to afford to hit those mileage limits. So they weren't that ridiculous in 1970.

I guess somebody felt strongly about it or they wouldn't have put it in the constitution.

Does seem like an odd thing to put in a constitution.

snoloco wrote

Yes it takes 2 lifts to lap, but there isn't any portion of it that requires one to push with their poles to ski.

So if you need poles or exert effort to move forward the terrain doesn't rate?

Guess what, I go skiing to you know actually ski down the hill.  Not push with my poles for half a mile to get back to the lift.  Whiteface doesn't have any flat spots on lift served terrain.  I don't consider The Slides to be lift served terrain, and neither does management, who advertises it as hike to.

So it's about how it is advertised?

Harvey wrote

So it's about how it is advertised?

HAHAHAHA

That's great on so many levels

snoloco wrote

You could fully build it out to my master plan

Screenplay has this narration said in the voice of James Earl Jones over some mechanical breathing with video of goose stepping.

Face4Me wrote

Here's some good, and very timely information about all of this ...

http://www.nysba.org/ForeverWildClause/

The Forever Wild Clause

In 1894, voters ratified an amendment that mandates that the state-owned Forest Preserve “shall be forever kept as wild forest lands.”  

The amendment’s catalyst was the destruction of Adirondack forests by the lumber industry during the 19th century, raising alarm about the impact on rivers, canals and water supplies hundreds of miles away, all critical to the state’s economic well-being.

What this really says is they want clean water for NYC.