Yale

So the facts are that if your kid is a great high school athlete, scores at least 1140 on the combined SAT and has a B average in High School (and that's not Honors classes but the bare minimum to get a high school diploma) they can be recruited at Yale for sports and no - they don't get a full athletic scholarship but they do get a full ride if their parents make less than $65K/yr (need based) and generous financial aid if they make more than that.   As far as Legacy applicants are concerned, Yale openly states they admit about 20% to 25% of legacy applicants and that is about equivalent to a 160 point SAT score advantage - not a gimme, that is wrong as well. The average SAT score at Yale is 2240 which is equivalent to  about 1500 (out of 1600) on this years scale. The average GPA is 4.1 (or straight A's) with most of these being Honors or AP classes, again - another huge advantage. So Athletes pretty much do get a pass on admissions, they can't be total dead heads - those get to go to the big state schools, but they certainly don't need to be the cream of the academic crop and they displace kids who are.

I stand by the statements made.

I understand the bitterness of a highly qualified kid, or parent of a kid, who feels that they were passed over for a lesser academically qualified athlete.  The harshness of "life's not fair" is a bitter pill to swallow.  Right wrong or indifferent-schools along with the pillars of power in our society, value "special talents" such as music, dance, acting, beauty and (perhaps disproportionately) athletic talents over mere cerebral gifts.  You're right, it probably isn't fair.  

My point, which I too stand by, is that it is impressive when student-athletes take full advantage of their gifts and metriculate in rigorous academic programs while simultaneously competing at the highest athletic level.  Studying architecture, engineering, pharmacy, pre-med etc while getting beat up physically and traveling is something many non-athletes in those programs would be unable to accomplish.  By far the easiest years of my academic life were post graduate yrs when my athletic eligibility had expired and I was working a regular job.  It's easy to study when you're not running 100 miles a week or riding in a dark minivan to competitions several states away.  If I hadn't loved my sport, it would have been an insane thing to do while completing my degree.  

The universities obviously benefit from having successful athletic programs, so again it may not be fair, but an outstanding athlete brings a value to a school that an otherwise borderline admisable non-athlete doesn't.

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

I understand the bitterness of a highly qualified kid, or parent of a kid, who feels that they were passed over for a lesser academically qualified athlete.  The harshness of "life's not fair" is a bitter pill to swallow.  Right wrong or indifferent-schools along with the pillars of power in our society, value "special talents" such as music, dance, acting, beauty and (perhaps disproportionately) athletic talents over mere cerebral gifts.  You're right, it probably isn't fair.  

My point, which I too stand by, is that it is impressive when student-athletes take full advantage of their gifts and metriculate in rigorous academic programs while simultaneously competing at the highest athletic level.  Studying architecture, engineering, pharmacy, pre-med etc while getting beat up physically and traveling is something many non-athletes in those programs would be unable to accomplish.  By far the easiest years of my academic life were post graduate yrs when my athletic eligibility had expired and I was working a regular job.  It's easy to study when you're not running 100 miles a week or riding in a dark minivan to competitions several states away.  If I hadn't loved my sport, it would have been an insane thing to do while completing my degree.  

The universities obviously benefit from having successful athletic programs, so again it may not be fair, but an outstanding athlete brings a value to a school that an otherwise borderline admisable non-athlete doesn't.

You just might have changed my view on college athletic programs and their athletes..

Now I pose the question, should these athletes get paid or is a free education enough compensation?

This probably has implications I am not imagining, but I was thinking yesterday that they could get paid and it goes into a trust for them until their football career is over.

OK - so lets again look at the facts available to anyone who does the minimum amount of work to speak from an informed stance. In 2011 86% of Yales basketball team were political science majors - not Engineers or Pre-med or Physics. http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2011/09/23/up-close-students-or-athletes/ What I find sad about this article is that you have athletes who want an engineering or Pre-med degree, they get sucked into these programs and have to switch over to Poli-sci to stay in school, what a disservice to the athlete. They are just being used by the university for entertainment purposes. Yes, there are some athletes who can do it all, and they should be applauded. However these Universities are about educating our best and athletic competition is part of a strong mind, strong body and not the primary mission. It's another form of big money polluting not only our political process but our universities.

This article sums up my feelings on this issue: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-r-cole/a-little-secret-athletics_b_787461.html

warp daddy wrote

Camper : Cuse has to play well , that team is fundamentally very sound and will be ready , hopefully the real Cuse shows up !

Go Orange !,

Sweet 16 baby

Gonzaga will be a great test --- can not wait!

PeeTex wrote

 Sorry - college sports pisses me off.

Whatever. Playing college sports was such an important time of my life. It goes WAY beyond the sport. Be angry at the corrupt NCAA and NOT the student athlete.

Yale's model: still a world more ethical than athletes at big schools with scholarships that turn students into unpaid, full time athletes.

It seems like if you add money to anything it will be ruined instantaneously. Especially with sports.

campgottagopee wrote

PeeTex wrote

 Sorry - college sports pisses me off.

Whatever. Playing college sports was such an important time of my life. It goes WAY beyond the sport. Be angry at the corrupt NCAA and NOT the student athlete.

I agree 100% with that, the system is not doing the best for them in the long run

First of all Camper : nYEEEEEEEE HAAAAAA saweeet win ,, the 'ZAGS will be a great opponent and as always ; GO 'CUSE !!

Good discussion too, one other point is very often student athletes at D1 in the non TV sports tend to be very fine students many of whom often major in very complex and rigorous prorams requiring graduate and professional degrees beyond the undergraduate level.

MANY of these kids competing in the non popular , non TV sports do so WITHOUT benefit of athletic scholarship since there are often very limited scholarships ALLOCATED to those sports and in some cases NONE allocated .SO the athlete is simply dedicated to their sport yet still manages to achieve at a very high level in both the academic and athletic arenas .

These athletes are the purest example of dedication and often perform without benefit of fanfare , notoriety or direct or indirect financial reward.They have my upmost respect not only as a former collegiate coach but also as a former college president .



 

PeeTex wrote

OK - so lets again look at the facts available to anyone who does the minimum amount of work to speak from an informed stance. In 2011 86% of Yales basketball team were political science majors - not Engineers or Pre-med or Physics.

 
That's one anecdotal example.  It seems like you put minimal effort into claiming to be informed.  Look at sports other than football and basketball my friend.  My one anecdotal example is from my senior cross country team.  An NCAA championship qualifying team of 7 guys.... 1 Finance major, 2 Architects, 1 Electrical Engineer, 1 Pharmacist, 1 History major and one Computer Science major.  All graduated and practiced in their fields of study.  I know how much personal experience ruffles your feathers but at least scratch beneath the basketball/football surface when claiming to have done extensive research....

Footnote from your second posted "internet research"-
"3 This is not true in all sports. For example, golf, crew, and fencing team members scored about as well as the average SAT score in the class. But in the class of 1989 that Shulman and Bowen followed at these schools, football players had scores that were about 120 points lower than the average; and hockey plays even a bit lower."

Oh, I thought the guy in the OP video WAS a basketball player, or maybe you missed that point.

PeeTex wrote

Oh, I thought the guy in the OP video WAS a basketball player, or maybe you missed that point.

 

well that suddenly became this:      "Sorry - college sports pisses me off."

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

PeeTex wrote

Oh, I thought the guy in the OP video WAS a basketball player, or maybe you missed that point.

 

well that suddenly became this:      "Sorry - college sports pisses me off."

And it still does, but I should have qualified it. I think club sports are great. I just vehemently oppose what the big conferences and big money has done to it and the colleges it has infected. As you said, I don't accept anecdotal experience as representing the norm. My experience with college athletes in that class while in college back in the stone ages is when two athletes raped a girl in thier dorm, it went unprosecuted. You don't hear me saying all college athletes are rapists. Rather I look at the larger statistics to formulate my opinions.

<quote author="PeeTex">
<quote author="JohnIrvingwrestles">

PeeTex wrote

. Rather I look at the larger statistics to formulate my opinions.

Funny how the "I need facts guy" was the one who originally said:

"I think the correct answer was that their SAT scores were higher, I doubt this guy even took the test..."

2 easily found facts for anyone willing to do a little work could find are:

1.the athlete you disparaged, Taurean Prince, was on the Big 12 commissioners academic honor roll his sophomore year.
2. In order to be an eligible D1 athlete either the ACT or Sat test is required.

So your ignorant & insulting post is not based on actual factual information but rather on some ugly knee jerk internal bias.

<quote author="JohnIrvingwrestles">
<quote author="PeeTex">

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

PeeTex wrote

. Rather I look at the larger statistics to formulate my opinions.

Funny how the "I need facts guy" was the one who originally said:

"I think the correct answer was that their SAT scores were higher, I doubt this guy even took the test..."

2 easily found facts for anyone willing to do a little work could find are:

1.the athlete you disparaged, Taurean Prince, was on the Big 12 commissioners academic honor roll his sophomore year.
2. In order to be an eligible D1 athlete either the ACT or Sat test is required.

So your ignorant & insulting post is not based on actual factual information but rather on some ugly knee jerk internal bias.

I believe Mr. Prince is a Media Arts Major - hardly the difficult major you implied.

<quote author="PeeTex">
<quote author="JohnIrvingwrestles">

PeeTex wrote

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

PeeTex wrote

. Rather I look at the larger statistics to formulate my opinions.

Funny how the "I need facts guy" was the one who originally said:

"I think the correct answer was that their SAT scores were higher, I doubt this guy even took the test..."

2 easily found facts for anyone willing to do a little work could find are:

1.the athlete you disparaged, Taurean Prince, was on the Big 12 commissioners academic honor roll his sophomore year.
2. In order to be an eligible D1 athlete either the ACT or Sat test is required.

So your ignorant & insulting post is not based on actual factual information but rather on some ugly knee jerk internal bias.

I believe Mr. Prince is a Media Arts Major - hardly the difficult major you implied.

I didn't imply anything about Mr. Prince's major.  When speaking of "difficult" majors it was clear I was speaking of individuals from my past.  That being said, it's clear that Mr. Prince isn't the imbecile that you implied he was just because you yourself couldn't interpret his use of deadpan humor like most everyone else in the free world could......

He also might have been really shell shocked about the loss.

http://nypost.com/2011/12/30/sat-taker-for-hire-tells-60-minutes-it-was-easy-to-cheat/<quote author="JohnIrvingwrestles">
<quote author="PeeTex">

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

PeeTex wrote

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

PeeTex wrote

. Rather I look at the larger statistics to formulate my opinions.

Funny how the "I need facts guy" was the one who originally said:

"I think the correct answer was that their SAT scores were higher, I doubt this guy even took the test..."

2 easily found facts for anyone willing to do a little work could find are:

1.the athlete you disparaged, Taurean Prince, was on the Big 12 commissioners academic honor roll his sophomore year.
2. In order to be an eligible D1 athlete either the ACT or Sat test is required.

So your ignorant & insulting post is not based on actual factual information but rather on some ugly knee jerk internal bias.

I believe Mr. Prince is a Media Arts Major - hardly the difficult major you implied.

I didn't imply anything about Mr. Prince's major.  When speaking of "difficult" majors it was clear I was speaking of individuals from my past.  That being said, it's clear that Mr. Prince isn't the imbecile that you implied he was just because you yourself couldn't interpret his use of deadpan humor like most everyone else in the free world could......

I did not imply that he was an imbecile, I did imply that he did not have to meet the high academic standards that non-athletes in big D1 sports have to meet. I also said that I doubted he even took the test, that I admit was harsh but not out of the question, just because you are required to have an SAT score does not mean you even took the test:
http://nypost.com/2011/12/30/sat-taker-for-hire-tells-60-minutes-it-was-easy-to-cheat/

You may not want to admit that the big game D1 athletic college system is broken and that it hurts everyone in the process, the players who get used and the students that get passed over. You also insinuate that I am bitter because either myself or someone I care about was passed up for an athlete, that is not the case at all. I am pissed off at colleges in general and big game D1 college athletics in particular - in my opinion this is not how colleges should be run. Again, so you don't get your nickers in a bunch, I agree with WD - there is a breed of college athletic programs and athletes that I certainly support, those students who are at college for academic reasons and who got there on their scholastic merits who choose to play sports for all the right reasons.

Again - I am through with you and this discussion.

Deja vu...