mountain creek chapter 11

snoloco wrote

Operation of Mountain Creek has now been farmed out to SNOW Operating.  They are the operator of Killington, Jay Peak, Jiminy Peak, Bromley, and Camelback just to name a few.  If you've seen any resort with the "Terrain Based Learning" program, that program was developed by this company.

Snow Operating's specialty being a consultant to help ski areas/resorts make their ski schools more effective and user-friendly.  I don't think it's "the operator" of Jiminy Peak or Camelback.  TBL is a trademark developed by Snow Operating.  The key players for Snow Operating used to be senior management at Mountain Creek.

What I'm waiting to see is if the indoor snowsports venue in NJ ever gets built.  Snow Operating is going to run that place too.

So how is the $500 million build-out of Belleayre and its twinned mega resort going to be any different than Mountain Creek? They seem to be almost identical development models.

Moresnow wrote

So how is the $500 million build-out of Belleayre and its twinned mega resort going to be any different than Mountain Creek? They seem to be almost identical development models.

It still snows in the Catskills.

x10003q wrote

Moresnow wrote

So how is the $500 million build-out of Belleayre and its twinned mega resort going to be any different than Mountain Creek? They seem to be almost identical development models.

It still snows in the Catskills.

Yeah, it's quite a bit different weather from the Jersey border to the Catskills. How much longer will that stay true though? Skiing in the Catskills lifespan may be becoming shorter and shorter if climatologists are correct. Some years might be bangers while many others will be too warm to sustain successful ski areas. We are already seeing a continuation of small ski areas closing down in these volatile regions. If I were a big wig in ski business I sure wouldn't be looking at buying a ski area in New Jersey or investing millions into one.

campgottagopee wrote

Pure gold!

rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrack it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

If I already owned several huge mid-west ski resorts, and had money to burn, I would not hesitate to buy a ski resort 1 hour from NYC.

Nor would I be building a Gondi in the Catskills

RA:  Please stop baselessly speculating about the Catskills when you don't ever ski there.  I've skied hundreds of days across Hunter, Windham, and Belleayre and have skied there regularly for over 10 years.  Even in the bad years, Hunter and Windham managed to bring in a lot of business and Hunter was one of the few ski resorts to make a profit in the East in 15-16 (although their parent company Peak Resorts did not).  I suspect those two will be viable for decades to come, especially since they always upgrade their snowmaking to keep up with the latest technology.  Belleayre being state run is a completely different state of affairs, but they're certainly investing for the future with the gondola and are continuing to build up their snowmaking systems to be more like Hunter and Windham.

Z:  You are against the Belleayre gondola because you want the money for Whiteface, end of discussion.  You were hoping that Gore didn't build the new ADK Express for the same reason.

raisingarizona wrote

x10003q wrote

Moresnow wrote

So how is the $500 million build-out of Belleayre and its twinned mega resort going to be any different than Mountain Creek? They seem to be almost identical development models.

It still snows in the Catskills.

Yeah, it's quite a bit different weather from the Jersey border to the Catskills. How much longer will that stay true though? Skiing in the Catskills lifespan may be becoming shorter and shorter if climatologists are correct. Some years might be bangers while many others will be too warm to sustain successful ski areas. We are already seeing a continuation of small ski areas closing down in these volatile regions. If I were a big wig in ski business I sure wouldn't be looking at buying a ski area in New Jersey or investing millions into one.

Weather patterns change from year to year everywhere before global warming... In and out of ice ages. In and out of droughts.  Not saying humans aren't selfish slobs who hurt the envirnoment but it is not as simple as the earth warming causing no snow for the catskills within our lifetime.

louie.mirags wrote

Weather patterns change from year to year everywhere before global warming... In and out of ice ages. In and out of droughts.  Not saying humans aren't selfish slobs who hurt the envirnoment but it is not as simple as the earth warming causing no snow for the catskills within our lifetime.

True, but global warming is a legitimate concern. This is from NASA:



How many snowstorms will become rainstorms if the average temperature goes up 6°-10°?

We definitely have to prepare for more winters like 2015-2016.

Edit: link to report if anyone's interested: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/nyas.2015.1336.issue-1/issuetoc

louie.mirags wrote

raisingarizona wrote

x10003q wrote

Moresnow wrote

So how is the $500 million build-out of Belleayre and its twinned mega resort going to be any different than Mountain Creek? They seem to be almost identical development models.

It still snows in the Catskills.

Yeah, it's quite a bit different weather from the Jersey border to the Catskills. How much longer will that stay true though? Skiing in the Catskills lifespan may be becoming shorter and shorter if climatologists are correct. Some years might be bangers while many others will be too warm to sustain successful ski areas. We are already seeing a continuation of small ski areas closing down in these volatile regions. If I were a big wig in ski business I sure wouldn't be looking at buying a ski area in New Jersey or investing millions into one.

Weather patterns change from year to year everywhere before global warming... In and out of ice ages. In and out of droughts.  Not saying humans aren't selfish slobs who hurt the envirnoment but it is not as simple as the earth warming causing no snow for the catskills within our lifetime.

Yeah, I'm not sure where you are going with that? The science is pretty legit on this.

Yes, humans are affecting the climate to some extent with our bad habits.  But we are not making it snow less year to year at belle or creek.  That is good ol' mother nature and her mood swings (weather patterns)

louie.mirags wrote

Yes, humans are affecting the climate to some extent with our bad habits.  But we are not making it snow less year to year at belle or creek.  That is good ol' mother nature and her mood swings (weather patterns)

Do you even science bro?

And you are so sure of this how?  What is your opinion based on? Sounds emotional to me or a little bit of denial.

Regardless, my point had nothing to do with the why but more with the recognition that something has been shifted and if patterns continue in this direction many ski areas are going to be forced to close.

Google- climate shift and ski resorts http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/climate-change-research-predicts-70-per-cent-less-snow-alps/

No matter what you choose to believe in things are rapidly changing and if you are going to invest millions into a business that relies on having some winter you probably should be looking at this as part of your equation. It's a simple matter of sustainability.

snoloco wrote

RA:  Please stop baselessly speculating about the Catskills when you don't ever ski there.  I've skied hundreds of days across Hunter, Windham, and Belleayre and have skied there regularly for over 10 years.  Even in the bad years, Hunter and Windham managed to bring in a lot of business and Hunter was one of the few ski resorts to make a profit in the East in 15-16 (although their parent company Peak Resorts did not).  I suspect those two will be viable for decades to come, especially since they always upgrade their snowmaking to keep up with the latest technology.  Belleayre being state run is a completely different state of affairs, but they're certainly investing for the future with the gondola and are continuing to build up their snowmaking systems to be more like Hunter and Windham.

Z:  You are against the Belleayre gondola because you want the money for Whiteface, end of discussion.  You were hoping that Gore didn't build the new ADK Express for the same reason.

I can speculate on what I want and I've got 25 years on ya kid.

Hunter might last a while longer but as far as the smaller places that are already struggling I imagine are going to be shutting down. The few that do well could do very well in that area, I get that but the weather and competition will squeeze out the mom and pop places. This is of course if the current climate scientists are correct which it sure seems like they are.

louie.mirags wrote

Yes, humans are affecting the climate to some extent with our bad habits.  But we are not making it snow less year to year at belle or creek.  That is good ol' mother nature and her mood swings (weather patterns)

Is there natural variation from year to year? Sure.

Does human caused climate change mean that the natural variation will be centered around a higher baseline temperature, leading to more rain events and fewer snow events in places that already hurt for snow occasionally? Absolutely.