2017 Whiteface UMP Amendment

Z wrote

  I’m afraid the “fancification” of WF starting with the bar is a trend away from that.

Ugh, that totally sucks. What the hell are they doing? Do you really need to wait to be seated at the bar? Really??

Z wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

Z wrote

...the amount of foreign profits being repatriated and taxed is exceeding expectations and is stunningly huge and if even modest amounts gets reinvested in the US as Apple is doing the new tax law may work much better than expected.

I don't understand the repatriation thing.  The only thing that can be repatriated is cash.  It seems to me all that cash will go to inflate the market value of assets, especially financial assets.  Unless it is invested in real new assets, like factories and machines, it will not create any new jobs.  OTOH it might cause a financial bubble that will eventually burst before all that money is invested in real assets.

The fact that Apple could borrow >$2 billion last year to pay dividends proves that 1)interest rates are low, and 2) access to capital is not a constraint on the economy at this time.  Repatriating a zillion dollars will keep interest rates low but there may be nowhere to actually invest that money in real assets, at least not immediately.  That may help bankers and arbitragers, but it won't do anything for wage workers or retirees who depend on interest income.  Ironically, the Trump voters, who are less educated and affluent than other white people, may be the one who end up hurt by it all.

mm

Your first line is correct
If you are against this you don’t understand what is happening
http://fortune.com/2018/01/17/apple-domestic-jobs-investment/
Apple is bring hunderds of Billions with a B of profits back to the US that have been shashed in banks overseas.  That triggers now having to pay $38 billion in Corp income tax and they will then invest hunderds of billions in the US economy.  Multiple a similar effect from thousands of other companies and this economy is going to rocking.  Anyone that doesn’t think this is awesome will be proven a village idiot quickly.

Maybe that's right, but...
Maybe Apple's investments aren't contingent on repatriating cash.  If they can borrow billion to pay dividends, why not borrow billions to invest in the company?  Maybe the net effect is only that Apple buys back more stock, or issues less.  It doesn't seem to have any problem borrowing.

Maybe the real investment effect is that lower marginal tax rates increase the after tax return, and that attracts more foreign capital.  

In any event, capital formation doesn't seem to be a problem the US has been suffering from recently.  You can believe a tax cut a good idea, but you can't ignore that it will a TRILLION WITH A T dollars or more to the debt.  

mm

No you can walk right up to the bar and belly up. Its not done and the old timers don't like change it will take them a while.  I can tell you they upgraded the bar maids

PHEW!!! All is ok w/ the world

APA approves all changes

Personally, I like just about everything about the updated UMP.  Cue Snoloco's arguments against in 3...2...

I don't have a problem with most of this, if they do everything in the proper order.

Snowmaking has to be top priority.  Otherwise they add any new terrain and another expert trail will be pretty much taken off the map.  We already lost Hoyt's and Lookout Below.  What's next?  Mac?  Lower Sky?

If they do build the new trails, then they have to the new Freeway lift and run the Little Whiteface lift on a regular basis.  The new trails will encourage even more people to lap the gondola and there are already way too many people trying to ride it.  There needs to be a way to get around the even worse lines than there already are.  Speeding up the gondola would help too.  Two most recent times I timed it, it was only running at 875 feet per minute on non windy days and the design speed is 1212 feet per minute.  At least run it at 1000 or better yet full speed.  Why pay for the super long terminals to have the extra speed if you just want to run it slower?

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/news/local-news/2018/04/apa-oks-whiteface-changes/?platform=hootsuite

The idea of a Blue trail on little WF is just stupid as it’s much too steep for that and putting The new I lift up over LWF also makes zero sense as well.  Trying to cut a blue on a black pitch was a disaster with W trail so you would think a lesson would have been learned but apparently not.  

What are the further restrictions for the Birds?  Will it now take 3 season to do what every other ski area can do in one?

Common sense seems to be in short supply

The trail that goes off of Approach towards the gondola will actually do so pretty much right at the end of where Approach dumps into Mountain Run.  That may be doable as there is a ridge line they can follow that is lower angle.  Trying to put a blue trail between Empire and Mac is stupid and will never work.

I've heard that new Freeway will actually go under LWF and they'll cut out a trench and slightly raise the towers on LWF to fit it.  That idea has actually grown on me because the majority of the blue skiers they're trying to attract will lap the gondola and I'll get a new HSQ to ride that never has a line for the some (most) days when they don't bother opening LWF.

Seems like a lot of complexity to get a lift up another 200 feet above the top of Mt Run.  If they are going to run that new trail essentially off the side of the existing I lift why bother.  Just keep the existing lift line and route with a HSQ
There really is no reas9n this lift needs to go to the bottom.  It will be a considerable distance up hill from the base lodge regardless so Keep it as is and just upgrade it.

I don't know exactly where the trail would go but that's what I've been told.  I think that plan may be modified if they junked the plans for the second trail between Mac and Empire (which is why the lift was supposed to end above Mtn Run in the first place).  I'd be so happy if they threw that asinine idea out because that would mean we could still get the 3rd Lookout trail which we wouldn't have had mileage for otherwise.

I think they want that lift going to the bottom so that it encourages people to use it over the gondola.  But with one intermediate trail (skied by people who prefer to lap the gondola anyways) and no mid-station for NYSEF, who is going to really use that lift?  Experts won't use it if LWF is running.  Really it becomes yet another backup for the gondola which they will likely hardly ever run.  I'd rather see LWF and/or the summit go detachable (after extensive snowmaking upgrades though).  I think a detachable on the Freeway alignment would be greatly underutilized with or without another intermediate trail and I'd like to be able to ski the upper mountain without sitting on a cold slow lift for 10+ minutes.  Currently the only alternative is to ski through hoards of joeys to the bottom and wait in line for a considerable length of time to ride the gondola.  Doppelmayr now has a high wind option for chairs on detachable lifts where they have a plastic slotted backrest and weights under the seats and I can't think of any better application for those features than Whiteface.

So does APA approval mean the new chair from Bear to mid is a go?   Are all proposals now a go?  Where does new chair end?  Mid lodge or base of two upper chairs ?    Approval means what to execution?   How much of the $60m in this years budget cares for this plan?    Will I be alive to reap the benefits?    

Hoser wrote

Will I be alive to reap the benefits?

How old are you?

LOL Scotty good answer!

The UMP is about permission. Funding is a separate issue.

Not sure of allocation breakdown other than its not all for ski mtns.

They are cleared for all approved proposals.  Things listed as approved conceptional will have to come back for future ump once the specific details are finalized.

Bear lift would mid drop at current end drop and end drop to a clearning skiers left above the split  of calaminty lane off thurway

Their presently is enough milage under the trail cap for the new trail off approach and the lookout mtn trail - (so in other words SnoIsWrongAgain).

I’ve been in the woods extensively between empire and upper mac and for sure it is possible to put an intermediate trail in there.  The already, since 1996, approved trail along approach and wrapping around skiers right of existing freeway lift back onto parkway is super doable.

Having only one intermediate option off little whiteface is not in the best interest of Whiteface.  And an intermediate trail to all expert terrain creates a lot of problems.  

A high speed quad from base to just above lift I (7, racer chair) which is still in the best protected wind zone would be a great enhance to move skiers on big wind days during or the day after major storm events

Snowmaking infrastructure improvements are first priority. Then lifts and new trails.

Very excitted for these changes and thankful for the funding!!

Bear lift would mid drop at current end drop and end drop to a clearning skiers left above the split  of calaminty lane off thurway

I just cant picture this.  It must go uphill of the ridge that is by the midlodge, right?

Correct. There is an access road that cuts from bottom of mtn run to bottom of calamity lane - right around tower 1 of lwf chair.  Above that.  In vinicity of where 1980 scoreboard is

ScottyJack wrote

Bear lift would mid drop at current end drop and end drop to a clearning skiers left above the split  of calaminty lane off thurway

Their presently is enough milage under the trail cap for the new trail off approach and the lookout mtn trail - (so in other words SnoIsWrongAgain).

so there is really two chairs in the plan
1) a new bear chair with a mid station and a top around the top of Mid I now which I assume utilizes the I lift line - it would serve the race needs though probably not as well as they would have to do to bottom to load and get mixed in with the masses using Bear lift unless they do a mid load lift like at Alta but those are pretty uncommon and probably costly.
2) a new I lift on a different lift line

would that allow to open the skiing under the upper I liftline that will no longer have a lift on it?  I recall skiing that legally way back like 20+ years ago.

Also is there mileage under the limit to do two new trails off LWF and the one on the lookers right of Lookout?  That trail should be priority as it would get more use out of that lift and would be sheltered from the wind pretty well - it looks to also have some great glade potential and is high in elevation.

<quote author="Z"

so there is really two chairs in the plan

Yes

Bear would would extend its line to above calaminty lane intersection.

The new I lift would lookers left of where bear starts now and use most of existing I line extending above current drop zone to somewhere between start of empire and upper mac.

Also is there mileage under the limit to do two new trails off LWF and the one on the lookers right of Lookout?  
</quote>

Yes on milage.  The approved not built trail on lookout is lookers right off liftline starting off on wilmington and connecting back to hoyts at rand’s last stand.

A portion of the trail off parkway would use some of the existing lift line under racer chair above the present mid drop

I don't get why all these new lifts are supposed to start from the bottom.  I don't see out of base capacity as a pressing issue for Whiteface.  When the gondola gets crowded (most of the time), I ride the Facelift (and sometimes ride it even when the gondola isn't crowded).  When the Facelift gets crowded, I go Bear to Freeway and then don't return to the base until the end of the day (and I've only had to do that once this year).

The Freeway lift is the most underutilized lift on the mountain and replacing it with a high speed quad that goes to the bottom will not get many more people to ride it.  Experts won't use it if LWF is running.  Intermediates won't use it as they prefer to lap the gondola.  On windy days it might be useful.

The blue trail that is planned to go off towards the gondola like I said earlier may actually be a decent trail.  Should have nice views and will result in Parkway getting more attention with snowmaking.  The one between Empire and Mac would be like trying to dynamite Skyward into a blue with switchbacks.  And it will get blasted by the wind.  If it allows one to access the Summit and Lookout lifts from the new Freeway lift that would be really great as I would never need to ride the gondola again.

I looked at extending the existing Freeway route with a slight turn that could be done with canted sheaves.  That and upgrading Bear would make more sense than crowding the base area with an additional lift and would upgrade out of base capacity.  And with a mid station in the current location it would be useful for racers.  A new Bear lift could be extended in both directions and start closer to the gondola and end at mid.

If they're going to do so much to improve their product for intermediates, then they also need to be fair and do something to improve it for experts which would be in the form of snowmaking upgrades that would result in Hoyt's and Cloudspin being open on a much more consistent full time basis, more resurfacing on expert trails, and cutting the final Lookout trail.