$9.1 Million to update Belleayre's Discovery Lodge

Count me among those who aren’t necessarily outraged by this one.  Is $9.1m a lot of money?  Sure.  However, when you look at what they are getting for that money it seems it’s more than a spiffy new lodge and bar.  It’s going to take more than Z’s rudimentary back of the napkin analysis to get me up in arms.

Yes, the sound bite is that Belle gets a new lodge. However, it doesn’t seem it’s really focused on giving skiers, who should (and are) rightly be judging the skiing product, a fancy place to chow down.  This seems to be focused just as much on economic development for the region.  A big part of this is an expansion of space that will allow Belle to host more events as a four seasons resort.  Anyone who travels to mountain locals year round knows that winter isn’t the busy season.  Why shouldn’t Belle and the Cats capitalize more on that?  

In terms of improving the skier experience the restroom facilities will double and locker space will increase.  Oh, and this will include an expanded and improved rental shop brought into the current age.  Also, given the age of the current lodge and lack of previous spending a modern sprinkler system doesn’t seem like a luxury.

From a fiscal perspective, for all they are getting $9.1m may not be that much.  Off the bat the $9.1m creates economic opportunity in the region.  They will have to hire people to do the work, and procure materials including locally sourced stone.  A portion of that $9.1m, small as it may be, goes back to the state via taxes on those earnings and profits.  Combine this with other initiatives for the area announced at the same time, changes designed to drive tourism and economic development in the region, which is a worthwhile and realistic goal, it seems unfair to saddle Belle alone with having to return profits to cover the full cost, as the region benefits.  Too many what ifs on financials, but a respectable return on investment probably won’t be as hard to achieve as Z is convinced.

And then there is the cynics argument.......the State is going to waste that money somewhere, would you rather they did so elsewhere on something you don’t care about?

Oh, and people should be careful about demanding a profit before the State invests money, because I’m sure we all have something we take advantage of that isn’t profitable that the State puts money into.....

Sorry. This 9.1 m will just benefit the new, private money involved with the Belleayre resort expansion. Similar to the bogus Gondola. Neither of those will benefit the true local economy. How will the new lodge affect employment in the region? Wouldn't the 9.1 m have gone much further if the State gave out low to no interest loans to multiple local businesses across different industries to expand and grow and to increase real, f/t jobs as opposed to seasonal employment?  Any increased skier visits, if any, won't get the investment dollars back to the true locals. Any benefit will  will end up in the hands of the private resort developers.

No matter what they build at Belleayre, it can't and won't ever be southern Vermont.  

Marcski wrote

No matter what they build at Belleayre, it can't and won't ever be southern Vermont.

But it is an alternative to southern Vermont, which seems to have more crowded slopes in recent years.  My friends who live in CT are regulars at Stratton and a small ski area in CT.  When the stay for a ski weekend, they tend to pay more for ski in/out at destination resorts like Stowe or Tremblant.  The Belle gondola and having ORDA on Max Pass was enough to get them to give Belle a try.  Wife is a cautious intermediate, husband took up snowboarding when she was learning to ski, so is becoming an advanced boarder fairly quickly.  They liked Belle on weekends as an alternative to the regular crowd.  Intermediates hate crowded slopes even more than advanced skiers.  There are some within driving range of the Catskills who are willing to check out alternatives.

I have no idea if the price tag for a new lodge at Belleayre is too high or not.  However, it's pretty clear that creating space that is good for 4-season use is an important long term investment.  As I've been reading more about the history of small ski areas in the northeast, it's clear that the places that made a transition from winter-only to at least Jun-Sep plus Jan-Mar are the ones that survived past the 1980s and were able to look forward even in the year or two after the 2008 recession.

In recent years, I've skied at Hunter, Belleayre, Elk, and Plattekill in what I think of as the Catskill region.  As a place to stop by for a day when on a northeast ski safari, Belle would be my first choice, especially on a weekend.  I like Platty in terms of vibe and terrain a lot, but it really is out of the way.

Curious how far is platty from Belle?   Can a guy or family off the street get weekend lift passes for what cost?    Love to try platty !

Plattekill is only 15-20 minutes further then Belle from the metro area. A Friday ticket is about $50. Saturday’s more. Come up and help clear some glades this Saturday and you’ll go home with a voucher for a day ticket

I just looked. 2 day ticket is 125 for a grownup and 95 for a youth. Under 6 yr olds ski free

marznc wrote

Marcski wrote

No matter what they build at Belleayre, it can't and won't ever be southern Vermont.

I have no idea if the price tag for a new lodge at Belleayre is too high or not.  However, it's pretty clear that creating space that is good for 4-season use is an important long term investment.  As I've been reading more about the history of small ski areas in the northeast, it's clear that the places that made a transition from winter-only to at least Jun-Sep plus Jan-Mar are the ones that survived past the 1980s and were able to look forward even in the year or two after the 2008 recession.

In recent years, I've skied at Hunter, Belleayre, Elk, and Plattekill in what I think of as the Catskill region.  As a place to stop by for a day when on a northeast ski safari, Belle would be my first choice, especially on a weekend.  I like Platty in terms of vibe and terrain a lot, but it really is out of the way.

As Brownski stated, Platty is only about 20 minutes past Belleayre.  Not really "out of the way."  

Belleayre is State owned, it can't go out of business.  It's like a state park that has a pool that only gets used in summer time. Again, the benefits of any increased skier traffic at Belleayre will accrue directly to the private owners of the new resort.  IMHO, NYS taxpayer's are not getting anything here, in fact, their money is not being spent wisely, nor for their benefit or the public good.

There is a correlation between this...

marznc wrote

I like Platty in terms of vibe...

...and this...

marznc wrote

...it really is out of the way.

Hoser wrote

Curious how far is platty from Belle?   Can a guy or family off the street get weekend lift passes for what cost?    Love to try platty !

Coming to the workday is a really good idea if you are a tree skier and you've never been to Plattekill. You will get a good handle on where the best inbound goods are.  If you are coming post a comment here to be included:

https://nyskiblog.com/plattekill-tree-skiing-work-day/

Also consider the first weekend in January - the NYSB Annual Meeting. Skiing, beers and a special showing of Snowfarmers with outtakes:

https://nyskiblog.com/snowfarmers-by-carboni-and-michaud/

I saw a 6 paragraph post from JTG and my knee jerk reaction was an eye roll......but even with 0 skin in this game......I agreed with 100% of this post.

(Golf clap emoji)

witch hobble wrote

I saw a 6 paragraph post from JTG and my knee jerk reaction was an eye roll......but even with 0 skin in this game......I agreed with 100% of this post.

(Golf clap emoji)

"Keepin' it real"

Dude.....

I’ve skied all the Cats ski areas currently operating and by far Platty is the best skiing and there is not even a close 2nd.  I would probably prefer to ski Platty over Gore if there were both the same distance away.

X talks about sales pay back.  Sales pays nothing back profits pay back.  If 100% of Bells profits went to paying off this lodge and they made 10% margins which in thier history they have never even sniffed it would take 22 years to pay off.  This is an invest that is so far out of portion of the business they are running its fing crazy to even talk about from a financial perspective.

Plus, it's all lipstick on a pig. Even with a ridiculous gondola and a stupidly overpriced lodge (9 million? Really?), the mountain still sucks, and the snow quality will never be as good as Vermont. There's a reason thousands drive right on by to mountains further north, and this silly stuff is not going to make them stop earlier more than once or twice.

Me? If it snows in the Catskills, I'll be hitting Catamount, and it's 20 dollar midweek days. The lodge is ok.

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Have you been to Killington lately? The K1 Lodge is stupid old and cramped. I'm pretty sure that if the taxpayers of Vermont were willing, they'd have an awesome Lodge there. But, they're not.

Killington just spent $5 million on the peak Lodge at the top of Killington Peak.

Which is still a real head scratcher. All that money and hassle for the same amount of seats. Could have double decked the thing like at Snowbird. So, with the same old K1 lodge, it's still a Darwinian contest to find a seat at lunchtime.

Benny Profane wrote

x10003q wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Have you been to Killington lately? The K1 Lodge is stupid old and cramped. I'm pretty sure that if the taxpayers of Vermont were willing, they'd have an awesome Lodge there. But, they're not.

Killington just spent $5 million on the peak Lodge at the top of Killington Peak.

Which is still a real head scratcher. All that money and hassle for the same amount of seats. Could have double decked the thing like at Snowbird. So, with the same old K1 lodge, it's still a Darwinian contest to find a seat at lunchtime.

Lunch is for wussies.  

New owners of Catamount are refinishing  the existing lodge and are breaking ground on a new lodge as well. Talk about tough to find a seat at lunchtime....Catamount was one of the worst before theae needed upgrades. Along with their new triple, snowmaking and grooming upgrades, the new owners seem to be doing a fantastic job.  

Marcski wrote

New owners of Catamount are refinishing  the existing lodge and are breaking ground on a new lodge as well. Talk about tough to find a seat at lunchtime....Catamount was one of the worst before theae needed upgrades. Along with their new triple, snowmaking and grooming upgrades, the new owners seem to be doing a fantastic job.

I met one at a recent ski club meeting, and shook his hand. A real labor of love to buy an old area like that and spend money on it. They bought it for 3 million, btw, which he said was mostly the land value.

Benny Profane wrote

Marcski wrote

New owners of Catamount are refinishing  the existing lodge and are breaking ground on a new lodge as well. Talk about tough to find a seat at lunchtime....Catamount was one of the worst before theae needed upgrades. Along with their new triple, snowmaking and grooming upgrades, the new owners seem to be doing a fantastic job.

I met one at a recent ski club meeting, and shook his hand. A real labor of love to buy an old area like that and spend money on it. They bought it for 3 million, btw, which he said was mostly the land value.

 
The same owners who also do a good job at Berkshire East, which is a great alternative to Mt. Snow on a weekend. Just south of the VT border in MA.

raisingarizona wrote

Dude.....

Between this pic and Craftsman tools being sold at Lowes, I'm convinced the world is coming to an end. ...I'm a former Sears tool and hardware sales guy ("career" ended 40+ years ago)