A Welcome Letter from Ted Blazer of ORDA to Belleayre

I'm really scooping you guys on the Belleayre news lately !

http://www.belleayre.com/promotions/ORDA_letter.htm

August 29, 2012 Highmount, NY ~ Welcome Belleayre Skiers and Riders:

With summer days dwindling in number and fall at our doorstep, there are many of you out there starting to think of winter and what Belleayre has in store for you. The process of moving from the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) to the New York Olympic Regional Development Authority (ORDA) is not as easy as some might think. And, as I have read and as I have heard, there are some that are nervous about what is in store for them as pass holders. I would like to put your minds at ease.

As most of you know, ORDA operates multiple recreational and sporting facilities, two of which are Gore and Whiteface.  Since 1982 we have gathered experience in dealing with the ebbs and flows of operating these unique mountains. We intend to use that experience to move Belleayre forward and to meld it into our fold. We realize that Belleayre is different in how it operates and what it offers, just as we understand the differences between Gore and Whiteface. We will use this winter to gain more knowledge and to utilize the vast experience that the Belleayre staff has to offer to help us propel it forward.

Will there be differences in how ORDA plans to operate Belleayre and how it operated in the past? Yes. Will there be similarities in programming and operations that have previously existed at Belleayre moving forward? Yes there will be. The Governor’s commission asked ORDA to take over management of Belleayre for many reasons, but the primary motivation behind the change is that we are in the business of running ski areas and there are efficiencies that can be realized through this merger. With a focus on recreation and passion for the ski industry, we are looking to bring Belleayre and the surrounding communities even more success in the future. For this to happen, we will need your support and are listening to your feedback. We are looking forward to working with Belleayre’s knowledgeable staff and coordinating with other ski areas to build recognition for all of the fabulous offerings in the Catskills region.

So here is the plan. We are excited to announce we have already started implementing some much needed upgrades to the Belleayre infrastructure. We plan on making some improvements to the lodges prior to the start of the winter season. Rubber flooring will be added to Discovery and Overlook Lodges. We are looking to create more space in the cafeteria areas. With a new scanning system we hope to offer season pass holders the ability to go directly onto the lifts for 2012 – 2013. We have purchased two new snowcats to ensure that the slopes stay in great shape. We will be adding more energy efficient snow guns to the fleet to allow for optimal coverage of the trails. We are taking a look at food service and rentals and hoping to improve overall customer experience in these areas. We are exploring future Nordic opportunities on Belleayre’s cross country trails. There will be other changes that we will take on as we gain more knowledge of the ins and outs of the mountain.

In conclusion, snowmaking will definitely take place at Belleayre this season and will take place at times when management sees clearly that there is a proper window of time with weather patterns that makes sense to do so.  Belleayre Ski School programs will continue as well as the exemplary children’s programming. We are working with the marketing team to come up with new and interesting promotions to continue to grow Belleayre in to the future. We will be looking at the mountain for places to add terrain elements for riders and skiers to enjoy. We basically are looking to operate similarly to how we operate our other mountains with great snow, great programs and fun times.
Please join us this winter, we would love to see you.

Ted Blazer
President/CEO ORDA

Lets hope the food gets a little better, I refuse to feed my children any of the grease piles from the freezer to the fryer that they currently serve....

skunkape wrote

I'm really scooping you guys on the Belleayre news lately !

Really appreciate the post.  Just scanned it really but it looks like a pretty reasonable letter from Ted.  Sounds like ops will be what you'd expect from ORDA.  No blowing for show.

Let's hope they keep the same unspoken policy that you can ski boundry to boundry. It's nice to be able to duck into the woods wherever you want and not be harassed. A reciprocal pass with Gore and Whiteface would be nice also!

I agree, a reciprocal pass would probably bring more Belleayre riders to Gore / Whiteface. I know I'd put in a drive if I could put my season pass to use up there, and my son is itching to ride some bigger terrain. When I start to think of the long drive to the adk region, I end up thinking of the other places I could end up with that much travel time....

My guess on the boundary to boundary thing is that will probably come down from the top guy on the hill. At least in the near term. (Anybody heard anything on who's replacing Tony?)

It always seemed to me that at Bell, that the b2b policy was chill in part because most people didn't ski them.  One of the good things about Bell IMO.

skunkape wrote

I agree, a reciprocal pass would probably bring more Belleayre riders to Gore / Whiteface. I know I'd put in a drive if I could put my season pass to use up there, and my son is itching to ride some bigger terrain. When I start to think of the long drive to the adk region, I end up thinking of the other places I could end up with that much travel time....

Bingo on that.  This is why I think the recip tic makes so much sense.  Gore is a LITTLE closer (for many in NJ/NY) than SoVT. Whiteface, not so much.  This could keep some of the destination skiing families in NY.

I think a reciprocal ticket would bring skiers to bell too.  For those who travel from the ny metro to the adks - sometimes the family just isn't up for the ride.  Or maybe the storm track went south. Time for a daytrip the catskills, hmm where should we go?

Curious if anyone would pay $100 more for a three way pass? $200?  Obviously it applies more to downstaters but curious about the answers. Maybe a poll is in order.

skunkape wrote

I agree, a reciprocal pass would probably bring more Belleayre riders to Gore / Whiteface. I know I'd put in a drive if I could put my season pass to use up there, and my son is itching to ride some bigger terrain. When I start to think of the long drive to the adk region, I end up thinking of the other places I could end up with that much travel time....

I would guess a reciprocal pass would happen next season for just this reason. I'd also think that passholders at other Catskill ski areas would seriously consider switching to a Bell/Gore/WF.

since there is no recip pass announced yet I'd doubt it would happen this year.  Most passes have already been purchased I would assume.  Anyone have any data on what % of pass sales by month?

There are 3 issues that i see

1) pricing would need to be at min at the WF/Gore pass pricing.  There was a year when it was cheaper to buy Gore passes compared to WF and that ran Gore's pass numbers up as it was cheaper.  I think Orda learned from that and will not repeat that mistake again.  Orda does not want to leave money on the table.

2) there may have been some kind of deal to calm the fears of the other competiting Castskill resorts

3) Orda may have really looked at market data and there may not be much cross over business making it not really that worth it to offer it.  No one that is WF skier would want to pay a cent more to have Bell on their pass.  In theory they are going to be getting less for their WF pass since Bell will hamper snow making etc at WF.

ausable skier wrote

3) Orda may have really looked at market data and there may not be much cross over business making it not really that worth it to offer it.  No one that is WF skier would want to pay a cent more to have Bell on their pass.  In theory they are going to be getting less for their WF pass since Bell will hamper snow making etc at WF.

Simply false.

Depending upon the add-on price, I would definitely consider paying more to include Belleayre, as I typically ski there one or two days mid-week each year anyway. If I had season-long access, I'd probably consider going up there as often as once a week, or so, again, if the price was right.

I doubt that I'd be the only one in the downstate region and Northern New Jersey who would consider it.

As far as pulling pass holders from their respective areas, I don't think that it would so much from Plattekill even given the proximity to Belle because the Platty folks are PLATTY folks. I would think it might persuade non-pass holders to consider purchasing a pass because of the extra variety. My wife and I would pay say $100 more for the recip, even if we only got up there  (Gore, WF)for a couple days. Buying a pass is contingent on how many days we expect to ski. Discounts available in the past put a daily ticket at Belle at around 42 bucks, which make the break-even about 15 days. We do this easily so a pass is a no-brainer. The other thing I like about a pass is I don't feel like I have to ski all day to get my money's worth. If it suxs I'll do a few runs and leave.

Chris

I should qualify my statements by saying that I am a non-local, local. That is, we have a house in Margaretville (8 miles from Belle and Platty)but come up from central NJ every weekend. My feelings are predicated on the fact that I have a real financial interest in the area not just staying solvent but doing well because it affects property values.

I don't think anyone is thinking there would be a three way pass this year (12-13). (Are they?) I'm assuming the speculation is for 13-14.

I agree - no way are they lowering pricing. Why would they?

AS are you saying that if there was no WF/Gore only pass (seems unlikely) and the pass was $100 more you wouldn't buy one?   If there really is no crossover between Gore/WF and Bell then you could offer 3 way passes at the same price and it wouldn't matter.

I think there will be crossover if ORDA offers a 3 way and sticks with it for a few years.

There was a pretty good budget for Bell under DEC. ($5M?)  Don't assume that all of the money has vanished.  And Ted basically telegraphed in that note that they will watch the snoblo budget closely.

We will not see a 3 way pass this season - its simply too late to do it

It might make sense to offer $25 tix for WF / Gore pass holder and see how many / few they sell

It would be very interesting to know how many zip codes of pass holders for WF / Gore are from south of Albany.  My guess is its less than 30%.  That means 70% have no use for a Bell adder.  It would be very interesting to see how many of the 30% would pay $100 more to ski at Bell.  Currently WF passes cost $202 more than a Bell pass so I question how many of traditionally super cheap Bell customers would pay to get a Gore / WF pass.

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out but we won't see the rates with Bell involved until spring

If it's 30 percent you're talking of one third the base basically, and therefore many people that could want to take potential daytrips. Especially considering it would be 1.5 to break even, even though the $100 sum is pulled out of an anus. ORDA will be looking for any reason though to raise the pass price to a similar amount to their other offerings so the can claim equal services and reinvest in the decrepit infrastructure.

Keep in mind MF* has the same skier visits as Belleayre and they're leaving money on the table downstate. But, it really isn't too hard to see Orda's thinking about how this could really work for everyone. I'm just encouraged by how slow and seriously ORDA is taking the progression of Belleayre into the fold and every day I become more convinced that this will be a win for all NY skiers. Ted Blazer already spelled out that there will be no wasted early November blowing to get Bell open for no reason.

Can't wait for Bell skiers to start complaining about the frivolous and excessive waste of snowmaking dollars pissed down the drain on The Wilmington Trail. Oh wait, I really don't think they'll care.

As far as Bell's liberal woods skiing policies, I haven't seen it. My friends refuse to go back after being yelled at by power tripping patrol members for poaching after a big dump a couple of seasons ago. They live in Albany but are just as likely to shoot down to Platty as Vermont if the snows good, but Bell has been crossed off forever or until the ownership resolves to treat the trails more liberally.

*MF = Me Face

ml242 wrote

As far as Bell's liberal woods skiing policies, I haven't seen it. My friends refuse to go back after being yelled at by power tripping patrol members for poaching after a big dump a couple of seasons ago. They live in Albany but are just as likely to shoot down to Platty as Vermont if the snows good, but Bell has been crossed off forever or until the ownership resolves to treat the trails more liberally.

Never heard that happening to anyone, ever. The only time I was given a talking to was after skiing a run down Highmount. Instead of hiking/driving back on the road, I cut through the woods and popped out at the bottom of the Tomahawk lift. The liftie said "no one cares if you ski the trees, but don't come back from Highmount via the woods." I guess because NYS didn't own the property back then, there was some sort of liability/trespassing issue.

Hah, Me Face.

I forgot I had this:

Gore Mountain Skier Visits by Region

It's not passholders and it's not Whiteface but it's something.

I'd think the idea wouldn't be to appeal to existing passholders but to bring in new ones.  And let's face it, the real money is in the day trippers.  Whenever I get the chance I ask GMs what percentage of estimated total skiing revenue comes from passholders:

Mike Pratt on Gore: 15-20%
Tony Lanza on Bell: 5-7%

So the biggest part is from day or destination vacation skiers.  Never heard anyone say passholders were 50%.

ml242 wrote

If it's 30 percent you're talking of one third the base basically, and therefore many people that could want to take potential daytrips. Especially considering it would be 1.5 to break even, even though the $100 sum is pulled out of an anus. ORDA will be looking for any reason though to raise the pass price to a similar amount to their other offerings so the can claim equal services and reinvest in the decrepit infrastructure.

none of know what that adder is going to be - $100 is a guess.  If Orda forcing everyone that buys a pass next year to pay more for Bell than per my thinking at least 70% of the pass buyers suffer while a small number benefit.  I think the majority will be really unhappy to pay more.

Harvey44 wrote

I'd think the idea wouldn't be to appeal to existing passholders but to bring in new ones.  And let's face it, the real money is in the day trippers.  Whenever I get the chance I ask GMs what percentage of estimated total skiing revenue comes from passholders:

Mike Pratt on Gore: 15-20%
Tony Lanza on Bell: 5-7%

So the biggest part is from day or destination vacation skiers.  Never heard anyone say passholders were 50%.

There is an unmeasurable statistic that goes with this. Passholders quite often bring more people to the mountain.. Riding is a social activity, and when I have guests, I always bring them to Belleayre, half the time they have never even heard of it! The last family I brought with were Windham riders, and they told me that their best day riding was with us at Belleayre. I never know what people are going to think that are used to a Stratton or Killington, or take their holidays at Whistler, Park City, or Tahoe, so I describe it as a 1970's resort that was frozen in time. It turns out many people get tired of the money vacuum that these places can be and are usually happy to have a nearby day or two of fun that doesn't break the bank.

One of the nice things about Belle is (was?) the availability of discounted tickets from a local shop and the $25 days. Last year they offered $99 3-packs to pass holders. We took advantageof the 3-packs (bought 2) and when those ran out purchased several of the discounted tickets from the local shop for our guests. We probably brought about 20 skier-visits to the mountain which averaged out to about $39-40 a visit. The current lift-rates  are still TBD which leaves me to believe they will end up in the $60 range. This figure is derived from the Gore season pass rate/full-price weekend rate and applying it to the Belle current pass rate of $742. Im glad my wife and I get in early and they give a family rate so it worksout to $615. if no local discounts are available, I can guarantee that those 20 extra visits we brought up will dwindle to 4 or 5.  Most everyone I bring usually buys something from the gift shop or cafeteria. This will also affect the local businesses which we always frequent for dinner. There is a lot envolved, I believe, in the bigger picture of lift ticket pricing and discount availability.  I realize the state run areas need to stay in the black, but taking into acccount how economically depressed  the Belleayre locale is,  you need to get as many people to the area as possible to make the greatest economic impact on the Highmount/Margaretville/Pine Hill area. Belleayre showed its true worth after TS Irene when it was the focal point for a good part of the aid the local communities received.  I really don't envy the policy makers at ORDA because they really have their work cut out trying to keep a lot of folks happy.

Chris

skunkape wrote

Harvey44 wrote

I'd think the idea wouldn't be to appeal to existing passholders but to bring in new ones.  And let's face it, the real money is in the day trippers.  Whenever I get the chance I ask GMs what percentage of estimated total skiing revenue comes from passholders:

Mike Pratt on Gore: 15-20%
Tony Lanza on Bell: 5-7%

So the biggest part is from day or destination vacation skiers.  Never heard anyone say passholders were 50%.

There is an unmeasurable statistic that goes with this. Passholders quite often bring more people to the mountain.. Riding is a social activity, and when I have guests, I always bring them to Belleayre, half the time they have never even heard of it! The last family I brought with were Windham riders, and they told me that their best day riding was with us at Belleayre. I never know what people are going to think that are used to a Stratton or Killington, or take their holidays at Whistler, Park City, or Tahoe, so I describe it as a 1970's resort that was frozen in time. It turns out many people get tired of the money vacuum that these places can be and are usually happy to have a nearby day or two of fun that doesn't break the bank.

The flip side of you occasionally bringing people is that most season tickey holders I have known over the years do not spend money for food and beverage on the mountain (including me when I have owned a season pass). Feeding a family on the mountain every weekend  can add up quickly.