ACR circling the drain?

The Eastern Townships are relatively close too in Canada.  Mt. Sutton has superb tree skiing and Orford and Owls Head are nice as well.  There is a lot of options for the North Country and Canadian skier...Titus anyone?  I would love to see Tupper succeed but there is also a reality factor that no one seems to be looking at. Where are they going to draw enough people from to make it work. Look at the Mansions and Great Camps for sale in Adirondack Life...the Tupper plan is banking on how many Estate/Great Camps to be sold?  Remember the grand plans for both West Mt and Gore?  Personally I don't think there will be enough interest.  You have the Owaissa Club trying to lure folks close to Whiteface, too.   They are claiming the only Beach/Ski Resort in the North Country...God, I can't wait to ski!

I would think that even if Tupper was open, and operating at full capabilities, most people, even Canadians, would drive the extra 20-25 minutes to ski at Whiteface anyway.

According to Google Maps, from Ottawa to Big Tupper is 2 hours 52 minutes ... from Ottawa to Whiteface, 3 hours 25 minutes ... once you're in the car for that long, what's another 20-25 minutes for almost three times the vertical!

Big Tupper is a "destination" ski area only for those very close to it, and areas West of Tupper Lake, including Potsdam, Watertown, Utica, Syracuse and maybe the cities and towns along the St. Lawrence, Southwest of Massena. For any place North, South or East of Tupper Lake, I would expect that most people would drive the extra 15-20 minutes to go to Whiteface.

Other than for Kingston, Ontario, I don't imagine too many Canadians would flock to Big Tupper.

sudsnbumps wrote

  You have the Owaissa Club trying to lure folks close to Whiteface, too.  

Hmmmm.......that place looks interesting. Now, that's the kind of pricing that could work. Even Benny is intrigued. Although, as a Jersey boy, using the  word "beach" in the description is a bit, um, much. Still, nice location. Close to the road biking near Essex.

edit: Shoulda designed those things with an attached garage. I lived in something similar in Colorado for a season, except all the units had a one car garage designed in. It isn't that hard to do, wouldn't raise construction costs much, and is a hell of an amenity on a cold, powder morning. You don't even have to put a coat on as you get in the car, which, of course, has no snow and ice to clear at 10 below. If given a choice between a personal hot tub and that, which is tough, I'd take the garage. Space to store toys, too.

Yes for Whiteface...but I doubt it could work for Tupper.  Come on I grew up in the Bronx then Northern Jersey...there is no real beach up here...sorry Lake George.  I moved to  Saratoga many moons ago and my kids learned to ski at Gore and Hickory...if anyplace might get a grand master plan I would wish it would be Hickory...IMO don't think it will work for Tupper...and I am not a conservationist/preservationist...I just think reality is people won't go there in droves when Whiteface is around the corner.

Big Tupper used to be a great alternative to Gore in the '70s when Encon ruled at Gore and you would get your ticket clipped if your skis left the ground. They actually built a good sized jump at Tupper and encouraged having fun. We drove from our home in N River to Tupper rather than 5 minutes to Gore. It could make another Wyndham style owner/renter timeshare type resort for the casual skier, and a great "change of pace" day for the rest of the ski population. I wish it success for the sake of the town, its hard to make a living here.

Face4Me wrote

Big Tupper is a "destination" ski area only for those very close to it, and areas West of Tupper Lake, including Potsdam, Watertown, Utica, Syracuse and maybe the cities and towns along the St. Lawrence, Southwest of Massena. For any place North, South or East of Tupper Lake, I would expect that most people would drive the extra 15-20 minutes to go to Whiteface.

I realize you have a WF centric point of view but we can also compare Gore access to Big Tupper:

Syracuse to Big Tupper  162 miles and 3hr20min.
Syracuse to Gore  150 or 142 miles and 2hr56min.
(from Google maps)

If you are coming from areas south of Lake George (Albany, Hudson Valley, NYC metro) once you get to Gore you need to figure on about 60 more miles to get to Big Tupper.

I do want Big Tupper to succeed, but it will never realistically be able to compete with existing choices for most skiers no matter where they come from.

x10003q wrote

I realize you have a WF centric point of view but we can also compare Gore access to Big Tupper:

Syracuse to Big Tupper  162 miles and 3hr20min.
Syracuse to Gore  150 or 142 miles and 2hr56min.
(from Google maps)

If you are coming from areas south of Lake George (Albany, Hudson Valley, NYC metro) once you get to Gore you need to figure on about 60 more miles to get to Big Tupper.

I do want Big Tupper to succeed, but it will never realistically be able to compete with existing choices for most skiers no matter where they come from.

My apologies  ...

No slight to Gore intended, I was fixed on the notion of the "Canadian" market and when I started checking distances from the areas to the South, I completely forgot to include Gore in the equation! That said, as you've pointed out, this makes Big Tupper an even less likely "destination" resort.

Big Tupper reminds me of Catamount in the Berkshires ... It's actually a pretty decent mountain, however, it's downfall is that it's pretty remotely located, and there are simply better options nearby, that are either easier to get to, or at worst, only slightly more difficult to get to.

I'm NOT very confident the project will work, that said.  You are not mentioning there is a golf course and a lake that go along with the ski resport.  I think it would be pretty cool to be able to ski out my door in the winter, walk down to golf and boat in the summer.  

TJF1967: There is no Golf course to go with the resort,  it is owned by the Town of Tupper Lake, not the developers.. As far as the lake(s) go, yes they are there for anyones use. There are also many waterfront properties for sale at prices that are less than the lot prices the ACR is projecting to sell, which are not on the water, have no rights to water access and many dont even have  a view. Of course there is the small matter of the ACR actually purchasing the property surrounding the ski area they hope to develop. Since they don't even have the money to do that this project is pretty much cooked. Nice try but they missed the real estate bubble by a decade or so. It's a shame Big Tupper is not likely to ever be a real ski area again unless someone like Mattchuck (?) wins the lottery big and buys it up and sinks millions in. We can dream can't we?

here is an interesting thought

would the green crowd push for a deal where the state and Orda took over Big Tupper if it meant the end of any development threat there for good?

BT makes way more sense for Orda to run than Bell.  

I've heard many folks say that Orda is what put BT out of business to start with.  Note to my haters out there I'm not agreeing with this just repeating what I have heard.

Another slant to this is if the town is running BT now could they lease or have Orda run it for them since the Gov has decided that Orda is the best the state has to run ski areas.  I would think that the town would potentially even pay to have Orda run it for the economic benefit that the town would receive from that.  As the Bell deal has proved being profitable apparently is not something that matters to save a ski area so why not BT as well.

As a ski area, Bell will draw more skiers in one year than BT in a decade. As an olympic venue, why would ORDA need BT in Whiteface's backyard? Either the Belleayre hatred or BT love is misplaced, but it could be both.

ausable skier wrote

BT makes way more sense for Orda to run than Bell.  

First, Big Tupper is/was a privately owned and operated ski area while Belleayre was, and is, a state owned and operated area. Since the land is privately owned, I would think there would be all kinds of issues with the state running it, particularly if it started to generate a profit. Who would benefit from the proceeds? The state? The landowner?

Second, ORDA taking over Belleayre is a move to prevent a currently operating ski area, and all the jobs and economic benefits associated with it, from closing. Unfortunately, Big Tupper has been closed for so long, that the economic impact of that closing has already been felt and dealt with. That's not to say that reopening it wouldn't help the surrounding area.

A few more articles on alleged violation of ex parte rules during ACR hearing deliberations.  Adirondack Daily Enterprise, NCPR and Protect web sites.  Looks like what many suspected after the 10-1 vote and the deliberations where the commissioners knew little of the details of the project, Cuomo said make it happen. We will now wait and see if the courts decide to force the APA to release all documents requested in the FOIL submitted by Protect. No matter what side of the fence your on regarding the ACR a fair Hearing Process should be expected, nothing less.

New article today in the enterprise makes it seem like ACR is looking up:

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/541780/6-great-camp-lots-reserved-at-Tupper-Lake-resort.html

What’s the difference between a “reservation” and a “deposit?”  My guess would be cash.

This isn’t the first time ACR has claimed to have unnamed buyers / investors waiting in the wings.  

Also, what’s with this quote?  "It'll have to be done in stages (renovating Big Tupper), and it will take several years," Lawson said. "In a perfect world we'd close the mountain down for a couple of years, but that's not the intent. The intent is to keep the mountain open."  Who closes an operating ski area (admittedly the term “operating” may be a stretch) while upgrades are being made?  In a perfect world ACR would have the financing to install a new lift(s) and snowmaking and build a new lodge on par with the upscale multi-million dollar Great Camp lots they are selling.  Upfront.

My prediction: the lawsuit will be decided in ACR’s favor (the decision should come in the next couple months), but the project will fail to proceed as a result of the basic underlying economics (which have already been discussed ad nauseum).  Lawson, Lavalley et al will then blame Protect, the Sierra Club and the lawsuit for having scared off all the potential buyers and investors.  Big Tupper will revert to NELSAP status.

Full disclosure:  I’ve already gone on record saying the ACR and Big Tupper are a giant cluster-F, so take what I say with a grain of salt.  Just about everyone’s got a strong opinion on one side or the other of this issue.  This has been a dormant issue for the past year while the lawsuit is being decided, it’ll be heating up again soon. Stay tuned.

Let's hope they pull this off as it would be great to have another ski area in the area and that region is really depressed and needs the economic boost.

I like that they are taking the Jay approach using the e5b program to raise funds.  That gas recall helped Jay so maybe it will work there as well

i was also excited to hear that they are planning another craft brewery in Tupper.  I love me some craft beer.

Today's press release from ARISE:
http://adirondackeconomy.com/about-the-acr

There are lots of interesting thoughts and deflections about property taxes, PILOT program, size of the project, and jobs.

Here is a quote re-emphasizing the total number of units:
"The final number of housing units has not been determined at this time, but is expected to be approximately 700. These will include Ski-in/Ski-out, Great Camps, Townhouses, etc. "

It might be hard to sell Ski-in/Ski-out units at a ski area without snowmaking.

I have not read much about this, have always looked at it as a pipe dream, like the ski bowl development at Gore. However something caught my eye, this looks like it is being set up as an immigration ploy, rich foreigners buy in for the right to move to the front of the immigration line. I think they did the same thing with Jay Peak to raise money there.

Spend a mil or two on a vacation home, become a US citizen. Sounds like a good deal for those with a lot of cash and want dual citizenship so they can easily flee if their home country goes commi.

mattchuck, Yeah the article makes it sound like things are looking up but things are not always what they seem to be.

And Ditto AdkJeff.  It's too bad that reporters just take what these guys claim as true and print it..  It is pretty easy to claim you have "reservations" for 6 lots and one other large parcel that are now worth $20M. Lots with acreage but no waterfront, a road that still hasn't been developed, ACR doesn't even own the land yet.  Acording to the APA permit they have to build the roads and put in electic infrastructure before they can offer the lots for sale.

Seeing that the main front man still owes the fed gov over $308000. of his orig tax lien of $540000. and is behind on all the ACR properties and his own personal properties for Schoool and property taxes for over $280000., I'd say this is more of the same old BS that they have been spinning for yrs.

The ACR guys have been saying for yrs that they have all these mysterious investors just waiting in the wings, as I've said before, TALK is CHEAP.  

 And the ARISE press release is the same one they put out several yrs ago filled with misinformation.

Consider this: Last summer a waterfront home sold. 6000 sq ft custom home, 20 acres, 900 feet of waterfront, home only 15 yrs old. Went on the market in 2010 for 4.5M Sold 2013 for 2M.  Why would anyone pay Millions for one of these so called "Great Camp" lots in the woods? If you doubt me just go to realtor.com and look up homes sold in 12986.

This latest PR stunt just smacks of desperation.