ACR circling the drain?

Lawsuit against the APA for approval of the ACR has brought forth documents obtained through FOIL showing what appear to be clear violations of "ex parte" communications between ACR lawyers and APA Executive staff. Looks like ACRs' lawyer was basically calling the shots and the APA followed orders. Check out the many articles, Adirondack Daily Enterprise, NCPR radio, Albany Times Union and Protect the Adirondacks website. I'm not sure what will result but I know one lawyer said it could have a wide range, anywhere from revoking the APA permit issued to ACR down to a slap on the wrist. APA of course denies any wrongdoing but have you ever seen anyone charged with anything ever admit to doing something wrong? But the documents (mostly emails) show quite clearly that the rules were violated. Lets see what happens next, if anything. Personally the ACR project has a million to one odds of ever succeding anyway so all this fuss probably wont matter one bit.

Here's a link to PROTECT's website and more info on their brief.  

http://www.protectadks.org/2012/07/protect-sierra-club-submit-reply-in-litigation-against-apa-and-dec-challenging-acr-permit/

The eno-nuts lose but now keep fighting by lining up the Sierra Club to keep throwing unfounded claims and lawsuits in the path of any economic progress is the ADK's. They must be mad as they have a Gov leaning their way and they still lost.  Give it up and just let the ADK be - go save some seals or something.

The Post-Star agrees with you AS:

http://poststar.com/news/opinion/editorial/editorial-protect-don-t-protect/article_a55bbbc6-d3a2-11e1-b925-001a4bcf887a.html

Prosper, languish or go down the tubes - ACR will do it on their own. The law suit by Protect and the Sierra Club won't kill the project. It will waste millions of tax payer $$ and they will lose. They have a well established history of losing their law suits. It's a wonder they can find a sufficient number of wealthy, but feeble minded, donors to give them money to just throw down the drain.

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This is deep conspiracy.


Could it be that the lawyers game.    Forget the ACR,  one set of attornies working for the State and another set working against it....they both eat over the bones of an animal that will never walk again.     But they keep it alive so the meat stays warm.      What do the law firms who work for the State get per hour....bet $250.+.    Hey a little kick back here and there to fund their opponents to keep filing paper to keep them working.      


Thats the most logical reason for a 8 yr fight to me.    

This whole project we have argued over and both sides have valid points.  As a skiing public we are worse off for not having Tupper revitalized so if this is the end so be it but we will have one less major ski area in NY.

Major ski area? You're a glass half full kinda guy, I see.

Haha . . .

I just bought a Mega Millions ticket. So if I win, I'll buy the place and sink a couple million into snowmaking and grooming. Otherwise, this is not looking good for the future.

mattchuck2 wrote

I just bought a Mega Millions ticket. So if I win, I'll buy the place and sink a couple million into snowmaking and grooming.

I like a realistic plan.

this was a kool-aid project from the start with all the earmarks of a con-job. would somebody like to explain how ACR was going to be a mini aspen or even a mini lake placid. gloversville will be the next destination resort before ACR becomes successful. and don't get me started on the big tupper ski potential. it's like a larger willard mt, good for families who don't want to travel far. tupper is like the many lost ski areas of NY and new england who had nothing to sustain themselves in the long haul.

Benny Profane wrote

Major ski area? You're a glass half full kinda guy, I see.

Tupper is bigger than anything in NYS except WF, Gore and Hunter.  It is way bigger than Bell.  It has so much potential and gets more snow than WF so yes I'd say for NYS it had the potential to be major. It's certainly not K-mart but this is a NYS ski blog.

Never been there but every resort in the cats has more vertical and higher summit. How much snow do they get and is there real potential there? the website kind of sucks.

ausable skier wrote

Benny Profane wrote

Major ski area? You're a glass half full kinda guy, I see.

Tupper is bigger than anything in NYS except WF, Gore and Hunter.  It is way bigger than Bell.  It has so much potential and gets more snow than WF so yes I'd say for NYS it had the potential to be major. It's certainly not K-mart but this is a NYS ski blog.

Dude, I don't care if they put in three high speed quads and cover the place in snowmaking and build a great lodge with a great bar and charge a reasonable price for all that. I'll never ski the place, unless I'm nearby for some reason and bored with the other nearby choices, and somebody offers me a ticket . That's not going to happen. Nobody is going to ski there. It's too far from the markets and not worth that trip. Get over it. Why in the world would anybody drive by Gore to get to that? Why would they drive from LP to ski there? Until they build that superbridge over Champlain, anybody who skis Vermont could care less. Sad to say, but, so many hitched their ride of dreams to the tap dance of a jive talking Trump wannabe real estate salesman. It's an old American story, and worthy of a Russell Banks novel. Unless Governor Cuomo himself is sold to the idea, and folds it into ORDA, that place will never fly. Sorry.

Benny

There is actually a something north of NY called Canada but folks from Jersey like yourself may never of heard of the great white north.  LP has done really well with the Canadian market and Tupper is closer to Ottawa and Toronto than any other large ski area.

Tupper gets more snow from lake effect than WF so it has potential.  As i said its not going to compete for Jersey Kmart type customers such as you but its much bigger than all but 3 other NYS ski areas and better than all but 2 of them (I hate Huntah).  Tupper does not have the Wobblie Barn but it does have barns that wobble.  Its a cool little town with potential.

Actually adding Tupper to Orda makes way more sense than Bell ever did or will.  

I think that the point on this New York State Snowfall Map that is labeled 105.6 (inches) is in Tupper Lake. While the mountain undoubtedly gets more snow than town, it seems unlikely that it gets 100 more inches on the mountain.  When I spoke to Bruce McCulley in 2010 he told me the ten year average for Whiteface was 200 inches.

While I haven't skied Big Tupper (and sadly may never get to now), I've walked it.  I found the terrain interesting, in a Gore lovers kinda way. More so than Belleayre. But I don't think it's bigger.

All of this is a guess, as I can't find real stats on Big Tupper anywhere. If anyone has a source for BT stats please share.

Don't understand the flatlander dissin from peeps who's economy is driven by tourism.

Tupper's feel is very Gore like

The snow fall potential if more experience based of driving Rt 3 for work related trips for decades.  It will be snowing like crazy from Watertown thru Tupper and then you hit Saranac Lake and it stops.

My flatland blasting was directed at Benny in particular because his Killington bias was showing thru that he would not drive father to get to Tupper.  People that like Killington are not going to like Tupper if it ever gets redeveloped - it would be like comparing apples and watermelons.  I think Gore skiers would like it.

The current most important market for northern ADK tourism is Canada - a quick survey of lisc plates in LP today would confirm that.   Folks that live down south tend to forget that there is something north of NY.

ausable skier wrote

Tupper is bigger than anything in NYS except WF, Gore and Hunter.  It is way bigger than Bell.  It has so much potential and gets more snow than WF so yes I'd say for NYS it had the potential to be major. It's certainly not K-mart but this is a NYS ski blog.

Delusional.

The double (chair 2) on the main face of Tupper is under 600 vertical. The removed double chair on the main face (lookers left) was about 800 vertical. It delivered you to the few short "steep" drops on the main face.The top double (chair 3) is a little over 600 vertical. You ski down to it from the top of Chair 2. This is how we get the 1151 claimed vertical. So to be clear to get the whole vert you need 2 chair rides. The upper mountain (off chair 3) is mostly green and blue despite what the trail map says. Skiing the trails from chair 2 is like skiing the Sunway double at Gore Mtn with out the steepness of Twin Fawns (NASTAR trail) or Little Dipper. The couple of steep drops on Big Tupper are similar to the last drop on Showcase only much narrower. They are only accessable after a long flat trail from the top chair 3.

Would any of us drive multiple hours to ski Gore's Sunway double every weekend?

I have skied Big Tupper multiple times. It skis small. The big 4 ski areas in the Catskills have way more sustained vertical and way more terrain. Have you ever skied Windham? What about Bristol, Hickory, Holiday Valley, Holimont, West? That is just NYS, think about all the skiing in Canada and VT!

There is nothing that could be done to make this place a destination resort ski area.

By the way you insult Canadians everywhere if you think that skiing at Tupper is even worth a 3 hour drive which is how long it takes from Ottawa and Montreal.

Would any Canadians drive multiple hours to ski Gore's Sunway double every weekend?

The answer is no.

Tupper's major market always was Canada.  Its a lot flatter up there until you get to the Tremblant area and many folks from Ontario don't like to go to Quebec.  Canadians drive hours to go to ski on 400 to 600 foot verts.

My memory must be fading because I thougth Tupper was around 1600 vert but now that I looked it up it appears to be 1151.  I'm not sure if that is lower now than the past but I can't find the historical stats for Tupper. Does anyone know this for sure?  I also recall some really fine tree skiing.

I have skied Windham and I think its a nice mountain for the Catskills

I could care less about ACR but I did want to see Tupper suceed for the town and area economy and more ski areas is always better then less ski areas.