Belleayre Gondola Discussion Thread

The top of the Tomahawk lift is the highest lift served point in the Catskills at 3,430 feet.  It's actually higher than the top of Bear Mountain at Gore which is 3,200 feet.  The Belleayre West and Highmount lifts will be lower, so there is nothing planned that will change that.

Another thing I was thinking about will be how they handle midweek lift operations with the new gondola.  Currently, they run Superchief, Tomahawk, and either lift 1 or 2 every day.  Lift 7 sometimes operates midweek and sometimes doesn't.  With the gondola, they'll be able to serve all terrain by running the gondola, Superchief, and either lift 1 or 2.  However, it will be inconvenient to ski certain trails with this setup.  It will also be impossible for intermediate skiers to ski the lower sections of the Tomahawk trails as the gondola does not have a mid station, and there is no headwall bypass trail on that side like there is off the Superchief.  

I think they may run Tomahawk every day midweek, but only run Lift 7 on weekends the entire season.  It's pretty easy to ski across the top from Tomahawk to Lift 7, but it is extremely flat between Lift 7 and Superchief.  Once they add a headwall bypass trail on the Tomahawk side, then I think it would be a good idea to alternate between Lift 7 and Tomahawk.  Have Tomahawk running Monday-Wednesday-Friday and Lift 7 running Tuesday-Thursday.  You could also have them both run on Fridays.

Belleayre just confirmed that they will be using tunnels, rather than bridges to connect the bottom of Tomahawk to the Discovery Lodge.  In terms of holding snow, I think that it will be better because they won't have snow melting out from both the top and bottom.  However, they will need to make the tunnels big enough to fit a groomer through, and snowmaking could be difficult because they would have to avoid getting it on the road.

How long if a tunnel?  Just eye balling it it would need to be over 100yards long.  And you are supposed to ski it every run to lap the Gondi?  The idiocy only gets worse with this asinine idea.

snoloco wrote

Belleayre just confirmed that they will be using tunnels, rather than bridges to connect the bottom of Tomahawk to the Discovery Lodge.  In terms of holding snow, I think that it will be better because they won't have snow melting out from both the top and bottom.  However, they will need to make the tunnels big enough to fit a groomer through, and snowmaking could be difficult because they would have to avoid getting it on the road.

Hmmm, I wonder if they will name one of those tunnel trails the poop chute.

Coach Z wrote

How long if a tunnel?  Just eye balling it it would need to be over 100yards long.  And you are supposed to ski it every run to lap the Gondi?  The idiocy only gets worse with this asinine idea.

Really Coach, you actually think that?  Use common sense.  It is just going to be one or two overpasses for the road to go over the trail.  The most difficult part will be how to route the trail to go by the Tomahawk parking lots.  A possible route I have mapped out has a trail about 2500 feet long with two road overpasses with about the same pitch as an upper green or lower blue.

Here's an overview of a possible routing.  Gondola is in white and connector trail in purple.  All existing lifts and trails in their usual colors.


A closer look at how to get it through the Tomahawk parking lots.  Everything is in their normal colors.  I assume the new trail will be rated blue, since you have to ski a blue or black to get to it.  The route will have it leaving from right below the Tomahawk lift, going under the access road to that parking lot, then turning to looker's left and crossing under the main access road.  That section would be the steepest, and pretty much regular blue pitch.  The rest would be green pitch.

That would is a much shorter tunnel because you envision a new trail to make the connection.  Can they do that with out permitting, budget for trail clearing, snow making etc?  that is a multi year undertaking and they are building the lift this summer

They already have permitting for the trail as it's been on the master plan for years.  It most definitely will be important for it to have snowmaking right from day 1 because it will be an important connector with the new gondola.  ORDA has built a lift, cut trails, and installed snowmaking in the same year.  Whiteface had snowmaking on Wilmington the first year they had the lift, and Gore had snowmaking on Echo and Cedars the first year they had the lift.  The trail I plotted out is only about 2500 feet long, so much less work needed than cutting Echo or Wilmington where the former is at least twice as long and the latter three times as long and both requiring extensive blasting.

It took 3 years to permit and 2 summers to build the Lookout lift pod

The permitting for Lookout started around 2004 to my knowledge with construction beginning in summer of 2007.  The lift and snowmaking on Wilmington and LBO were completed in 2008 for a January 2009 opening.

The Belleayre project has already been approved years ago as part of the Highmount expansion, so they just need to actually build it.  It should not take more than 1 year to cut a 2500 foot long trail and add snowmaking.  Back in summer of 2006, Windham added the East Peak HSQ and cut the World Cup (formerly Wedgie) trail, which is longer and steeper than the trail Belleayre is cutting.  That trail had snowmaking it's first season.

The scale of this project is not what you think it is.  It's very much possible to complete in one season.  You just like to speculate and hope that it won't be completed on time because you don't like it.

Coach Z wrote

  And you are supposed to ski it every run to lap the Gondi?  The idiocy only gets worse with this asinine idea.

The gondola isn't made to lap.  It is to give access to the mountain from the bottom lodge without multiple lifts. Are you always this salty?  Is belle even your home mtn? How many days do you ski it a year?

I ski it only when forced to due to a race

My concern is that it is a bottomless drain on Orda's profitability which then impacts WF and Gore.  This is a huge waste of money for a lift that is not lappable and on a 900 foot mole hill not having a lift that is lappable is laughable.

Belleayre's vertical is actually 1400, but the current lift system only allows one to ski 1100 feet of it off one lift.  The gondola and the accompanying trail will allow one to ski laps on the full vertical.  The main reason this project is taking place is so you don't have to take 4 to 5 lifts to reach Tomahawk from the Discovery Lodge.  Being able to have a longer intermediate trail is just a secondary benefit.

its the smallest 1100 any where then
it skis really small

The vert on Tomahawk I'm guessing is more like 850 to 900  and that is the only lift serves terrain worth skiing there

Platty skis way way bigger and is 1100 feet

I will agree that Belleayre does ski small, especially to a now Whiteface skier.  Mountain Creek has slightly less acreage with less vertical and skis bigger.  However, saying that Plattekill skis bigger is crazy talk.  Plattekill has only two lifts starting out of the same base area with the triple having 845 vertical and the double having 1000 vertical.  Belleayre has three lifts in completely separate areas for intermediate and advanced skiers.  Superchief, Lift 7, and Tomahawk serve 1140, 800, and 950 vertical respectively.  Having the gondola will make access to the Lift 7 and Tomahawk sections much easier and take considerable load off the Superchief, making that section more enjoyable to lap.

You're crazy talk.

What is the definition of "skis big?"

Seems like sno and Z might have different definitions.

I think that could be an entirely new thread.

I think you guys are disagreeing on vert vs horizontal.

I am told (as of July 3rd, things may have changed since then) by Belleayre personnel who are working on the project that a final decision as to a skier bridge or a skier tunnel has not been made as yet. That decision will be made in the near future but the general thinking is that a bridge will be less complicated. The anticipated width of the bridge or tunnel, according to said personnel, will be 45 feet. If a bridge is utilized it will be engineered to withstand the weight of grooming equipment. Much if not all of the foundation preparation for the gondola and the erection of the towers (to commence this week or next) is being handled by Belleayre personnel which is quite an impressive accomplishment for a small mountain. I'm not sure who will construct the bridge/tunnel but my impression is that Belleayre personnel will be largely responsible for this part of the project as well. Survey markings on the main access road to the lodge as well as survey tape in the woods indicate the bridge or tunnel - assuming no further adjustments -  will pass to the immediate right (West) of the small entry road (not the exit road further up) that services the Tomahawk parking lots.. It would appear, based on my casual observations, that the terrain leading to the bridge/tunnel, depending on how it is graded, would probably end up being low intermediate terrain. The terrain on the exit side of the bridge /tunnel will not be able to take advantage of the steeper slope conditions just a couple hundred feet up the access road and will likely end up being thoroughly beginner terrain. Belleayre appears to have some leeway in final trail layout so some the foregoing may be modified as trail clearing proceeds. Hopefully, the small stream to the observer's right will not be damaged by the bridge/tunnel construction. The UMP failed to recognize this stream in its review. Deer Run is being widened or re-graded at the location of the gravel pit and several hundred feet up trail from that point. It is unclear if the purpose of this major excavation is to widen a small bottleneck that may exist there, to extract fill material for the bridge/tunnel connection or as an overall effort to simply widen deer run which IMO would be most unfortunate as Deer Run is one of the finest intermediate trails in the Catskills due to its undulating, New England style terrain. Like it or not, the gondola is on schedule to be operational for this coming ski season.

For me Plattekill is the definition of "skis big". You get off the lift, slide over to Freefall or Blockbuster and you've got awesome, steep trails all the way down. Or, you just go right down Plunge or go for a long cruise around Overlook or get lost in the trees, all without any significant hiking/traversing. I don't really understand what else it could mean.Belle is nice. I like the place but I think this whole project is an attempt to make if "ski bigger", which is what coach said if I understand him correctly. The new trail will make the Gondi lappable but I doubt it will successfully make the mountain "ski bigger". The top half is still going to feel separate/different from the lower part and you'll have to slow down to navigate the tunnel. It might make it look bigger in the brochure or on the websites trail map though. Maybe that's the real goal.