Belleayre March 8 2014

My son had qualified for the Kandahar Championships by doing really well at the Kandahar regionals at Whiteface last week.  They were being held at Belleayre so we road tripped down to the Catskills.  Unfortunately had had a learning experience  when he fell pretty spectacularly on the 2nd run.  He figured the only way to make Eastern was to go all out and he ended up booting out when he was a little too aggressive.  Just to make the what amounts to the State Finals for U-12’s as a first year is a great accomplishment and it fulfilled his season goal.

I got to ski about a half day around the sides of the race.  Here are my impressions of Orda’s newest area.

First off the general area seems as if its best times were back in the 60’s and no investment has been made since then.  If Belleayre (or Plattekill for that matter) need help from significant lodging upgrades if they intend to be competitive with the other Catskill areas.  We stayed 20 miles away at the Andes Hotel which was clean, comfortable and reasonably priced and I would stay there again if need be.  Other families from Whiteface that stayed closer at the Colonial and Skylight were very unhappy.  In particular the Colonial was termed a dump with several families checking out the night they checked in.

From the race perspective it’s not a great venue for a big race.  The lodges are too small and it takes 2 lift rides to get to the race area.  There is a huge flat spot in the middle of the course so it rewards the bigger heavier kids.  I hope that this race is not returning there next year.  They did not seem prepared for the number of racers that were descending on them.

The layout of the ski area is pretty unusual with the main lodge and parking lots in the middle so you really don’t ski all of its 1400 vertical feet at a time.  Many of the lifts also have mid stations as the upper 300 feet or so are stepper and the mid stations allow for lower level skiers to exit below that.  Add in trail intersections every 200 yards or so and the skiing is pretty disjointed.  On a Holiday weekend the collisions must keep the Patrol pretty busy.  Trails that are about Victoria’s pitch are marked double black to give Whiteface skiers an idea of the difficulty level.  The grooming seemed pretty good and they did seem to have some nice bump runs that once they reached the lesser pitch kept the bumps going.  It seems to be somewhat rare to find nice intermediate bumps and these would make excellent teaching bumps.  I could see that potentially there is some nice  but short glades but given the conditions they were not in play.  They also seemed to have a nice learning area.  

The biggest problem I saw is the lifts.  The fix grip lifts are stopping constantly because the clientele cannot get on or off the lift and the mid stations cause even more issues than they solve.  It was pretty normal to stop at least 4 times on a less than 1000 vertical foot lift ride.  The lift mazes were also a mess with them trying to use cones instead of ropes and the lifties did not seem to hold the chair normally causing a pretty rough load.  The chairs do not have any padding unlike all the other Orda lifts and are slippery so it’s easy for a kid to slip off which almost happened with one family I rode with.  I heard that the ex-DEC ops folks are pretty unhappy with Orda so some of this could be spill over.  The problem is if they put in HSQ’s then they can’t have mid stations.  The solution may be to cut the area into pods of different abilities and get rid of all the diagonal trails allowing the abilities to mix then you can put in a HSQ that would just serve Black trail and keep the others in their own area.

Whiteface or Gore skiers would quickly become pretty bored but its core market seems to be much lower level ability levels and its well suited for this type market.  I talked to some pass holders on the lift about why they don’t have the Ski 3 pass but they seemed to have the impression that Whiteface was located near Hudson Bay.  

Love the no holds barred report, Coach.

Coach Z wrote

...they seemed to have the impression that Whiteface was located near Hudson Bay.

Too bad it isn't, then it would be a shorter drive for me.

Sorry about your sons bad luck coach sounds like he gave it his all gotta love that.

I agree that ORDA should invest big time in Bell.

Maybe they should do some kind  of promo to regular Bell pass holders to get them to try a trip to WF or Gore. Get them to do a trip to the adirondacks instead of vermont and they'll be hooked.

Coach Z wrote

There is a huge flat spot in the middle of the course so it rewards the bigger heavier kids.

Just have to eat more if you know you are racing there.  

There is nothing wrong with Bell that 20 or 30 million $s won't fix. Now Gore has a place to send it's used equipment to after it has gotten it from WF and used it up. I wonder if the Adirondack express may not have a new life at Bell

I think Bell was OK for a race venue, the racers did not get in my way at all Saturday except in the lodge. Frankly I did not even find the lodge worse than that at WF, during a race day at WF you can't even put your boots on without getting crawled over by some speed suited rug rat.

PeeTex wrote

Now Gore has a place to send it's used equipment to after it has gotten it from WF and used it up. I wonder if the Adirondack express may not have a new life at Bell

I almost fell out of my chair when I saw this!

A friend of ours visits from North NJ and he says it takes just as long to drive to Whiteface as it does to go to Killington.  You spend much more time on the interstate.

I agree they need to do some intelligent investment in Bell but the way its laid out HSQ alone are not the silver bullet - other changes to the trails need to go along with it.  It may sound elitist but the problem is the mixing of the strong skiers and the not and all those trail intersections.

I had a conversation with the owner of the Andes Hotel last night and it sounds as if some people in that area are looking for Orda to be their white knight that is going to solve all thier issues.  If they don't invest in your own businesses to make them worthy of tourism $'s you can not compete and thus Belleayre can not complete with Windham and Hunter.  I think the Andes folks get that and are trying but apparently many others in that area do not.  This morning when we tried to get some donuts and refreshments for our drive my 10 year son said dad this is not the middle of nowhere - it is nowhere and this is from a kid that goes to school in AuSable Forks.

Coach Z wrote

This morning when we tried to get some donuts and refreshments for our drive my 10 year son said dad this is not the middle of nowhere - it is nowhere.

Kids can be pretty observant, Heck - when traveling through greater Breakabeen one starts to listen for banjo music and hoping that you don't have a breakdown, you are in the middle of bum-fuck NY.

I think you are being a little harsh on old Bell. Bell isn't WF and WF isn't Vail so get over it. Bell has potential, hopefully ORDA has the vision to see it.

Coach Z wrote

some people in that area are looking for Orda to be their white knight that is going to solve all thier issues.  If they don't invest in your own businesses to make them worthy of tourism $'s you can not compete and thus Belleayre can not complete with Windham and Hunter.  I think the Andes folks get that and are trying but apparently many others in that area do not.

Not sure what your point is.

We joked about the name of Breakabean and that the speed limit did not drop from 55

My point is Orda alone is not going to save this areas issues.  They are not competing with Lake Placid or Vail.  The areas businesses need to pitch in and invest in themselves so they can compete with Windham and Hunter.  Two families booked a room with the Colonial Inn and took one look at the room and drove back to Kingston to stay.  If the businesses don't believe in themselves how can the tax payers of NYS believe in investing here.

I don't live in Lake Placid so Podunk is familiar to me but darn this us one really run down area.  If you want to be in the tourism biz you got to make things look decent. Wilmington is not LP but it's a million times better than Belleayres immediate area.

Not all TRs have to be it's all great and rosy.  I busted on Park City a few weeks back so I don't love commercial stuff.  Just keeping it real.

Coach Z wrote

Not all TRs have to be it's all great and rosy.  I busted on Park City a few weeks back so I don't love commercial stuff.  Just keeping it real.

I have no issue with your points about the surrounding area. I just didn't understand what you were trying to say in the quote I cited.

Sorry writing on an iPad us sometimes not optimal

My point I guess is that it's a team effort and Orda can't do it alone.

While 20 miles away I thought the Andes Hotel was trying to do their part.  Andes the town was the nicest small town in the area that I saw.

Coach Z wrote

My son had qualified for the Kandahar Championships by doing really well at the Kandahar regionals at Whiteface last week.  

Nice!

Coach Z wrote

We stayed 20 miles away at the Andes Hotel which was clean, comfortable and reasonably priced and I would stay there again if need be.  Other families from Whiteface that stayed closer at the Colonial and Skylight were very unhappy.  In particular the Colonial was termed a dump with several families checking out the night they checked in.

...the general area seems as if its best times were back in the 60’s and no investment has been made since then.  If Belleayre (or Plattekill for that matter) need help from significant lodging upgrades if they intend to be competitive with the other Catskill areas.  


The biggest problem I saw is the lifts. ...

I think it's important that you noticed the Catskills are economically depressed, if it escaped the Wilmington crowd's notice then the discussion about economic development would be much less necessary.

They're all in a tough spot. As far as investing in their own businesses go, I think it's tough when there are no profits to reinvest. I'm glad you had luck in Andes but as far as I could tell, there's never been a reason for me to go over there - I was pleasantly surprised to hear a good report.  

The closest thing to Belleayre that passes for a prosperous town is Phoenecia. Although I don't really like the restaurants there, they're open and lively and it's a nice place to wake up in the morning unlike some of the other towns which could be used as sets for the Walking Dead.

Sadly, most of the threadbare businesses seem too far gone to just dust up. Like a dry forest awaiting a nice fire to grow fresh again, although I doubt anyone up there would like that analogy. And as soon as anything does become available, NYC will by it if it's big enough to preserve the water supply. It's a mess.

Coach Z wrote

if they intend to be competitive with the other Catskill areas....

Lodging is always tough up there because it's primarily always been a weekend house or daytripping area. I'm really bummed that we don't have a lodging guide up, because I would have suggested another three, like the Italian place right at the base, or in Roxbury (easier drive than Kingston at least). But Belleayre isn't alone in that. Plattekill's biggest issue (I think) is when people have a great time and can't stay within a couple minutes away. Yes, Hunter and Windham have more including slopeside condos, but I'm not sure to what extent every mountain has to compete in that arena either.

Coach Z wrote

The layout of the ski area is pretty unusual with the main lodge and parking lots in the middle so you really don’t ski all of its 1400 vertical feet at a time.

Yeah, I might go to the detachable Quad once during the day, but for the most part if you want all the Vert you're doing it wrong.

Coach Z wrote

here is a huge flat spot in the middle of the course so it rewards the bigger heavier kids.  

Wait, are we talking about Gore now? jk



In all seriousness, I wanted to say something about terrain. I always feel like whether you would get bored is pretty subjective and depends on the lines, snow condition, weather and company as much as the terrain. Did you ski with anyone that knows the area? Even at an area the size of Vail it can really help if someone shows you what you're missing.

It's a shame you missed Plattekill, it would have been nice to get a report of each with fresh eyes. Was the race on Dot Nebel? Again, that's my favorite trail there ( 1/2 ) and I'm no Bell apologist really but I hate it when that's closed.

So the lines were long? They were doing a good job with that on my last visit, even with the chair breakdown on Superchief.

On the upside, lots of skiers should assuage some of ausable's concern's. Can't wait to see the final ticket numbers because it seems like they're doing the best with what they have. Can't say I've seen a Belle ad yet, just lots of WhiteFace stuff down here with a bit of Gore here and there..

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wedeler wrote

How can you compare the lodge at Bellayre to the lodge at Plattekill?  It's like comparing a truck stop to a day at the beach.
Also, your uninformed, condescending, suburbanite comments about the beautiful Schoharie Valley are insulting to those of us who live here.

Sorry Wedeler, are you talking to me?

I certainly didn't mean to pile on to the Schoharie valley, it is indeed beautiful. I also think if the purpose of ORDA is economic development they have their work cut out for them in the Catskills.

Not sure if this is directed at me or ML

I'm far from suburban.  I live 10 east of Whiteface and my son goes to school in AuSable Forks.  

The area was pretty but us very down trodden.  It does not look like any home has been painted in a decade.  I made a note to look at the houses in "the Forks" today as I drove thru and just the general up keep in remarkably better and no one going to call the area east of WF a prosperous area or a suburb.

Yeah, I live in the belly of the beast in New York City so I don't have to go too far here to see poverty.

But, bring back Bobcat and I'll see you there twice a year. It could only help Andes.

Coach Z wrote

I don't live in Lake Placid so Podunk is familiar to me but darn this us one really run down area.  If you want to be in the tourism biz you got to make things look decent. Wilmington is not LP but it's a million times better than Belleayres immediate area.

Yeah, I tend to agree about the Belleayre neighborhood -- at least what you can see from 28.  Andes is a nice town.  But some of the rest from Kingston on up looks like the setting for "Silent Hill:  Catskill Edition".  The area has been hurting for a long time.

Coach Z wrote

I had a conversation with the owner of the Andes Hotel last night and it sounds as if some people in that area are looking for Orda to be their white knight that is going to solve all thier issues.  If they don't invest in your own businesses to make them worthy of tourism $'s you can not compete and thus Belleayre can not complete with Windham and Hunter.  I think the Andes folks get that and are trying but apparently many others in that area do not.  This morning when we tried to get some donuts and refreshments for our drive my 10 year son said dad this is not the middle of nowhere - it is nowhere and this is from a kid that goes to school in AuSable Forks.

Isn't this the whole point of having ORDA take over Belleayre? ORDA can work to bring events to Belleayre, such as your son's race, drawing people from outside the area who will need lodging, restaurants, stores, etc. Typical visitors to the Catskills don't require these things, as they're making day trips. As more and more outside visitors are brought in, there will be more justification for investment. It's kind of a chicken and egg thing.