Belleayre deal has competing ski center crying foul

From The Daily Freeman - Jan 6, 2011:

Belleayre deal has competing ski center crying foul

By JAY BRAMAN JR.
Correspondent

A well-intentioned business promotion has caused a rift within the ranks of the Central Catskills Chamber of Commerce.

The chamber, which represents scores of businesses and organizations in the region, has received a letter of ultimatum from one of its Executive Committee members demanding it immediately drop a Belleayre Mountain Ski Center promotion or she will resign her post and leave the chamber.

The chamber this month began a promotion called the “Belleayre BOGO Campaign,” a buy-one-get-one-free offer to any customer of a chamber business that spends more than $50. One-thousand vouchers good for a day of skiing at the state-owned Belleayre facility have been distributed to chamber members, who use them as a way to get people to come into their respective businesses. And more vouchers are being produced.

But Danielle Vajtay, who owns and operates Plattekill Mountain Ski Center, says the promotion is hurting the business she operates with her husband, Lazlo.

Full Article from the Daily Freeman

Harvey44 wrote

 From The Daily Freeman - Jan 6, 2011:
But Danielle Vajtay, who owns and operates Plattekill Mountain Ski Center, says the promotion is hurting the business she operates with her husband, Lazlo.

Jason and I were talking about this article during the ride to Belleayre on Saturday and the insane number of ticket deals available online. If you miss those, you can just stop at Potter's Ski Shop on Route 28. If you're paying full price to ski at Belle, money clearly isn't an issue to you.

This issue brings up two pillars of Belleayre's mission statement -- a)  attracting people to an economically-disadvantaged part of the state and getting them to spend money there, and b) making skiing affordable to everyone. Obviously, this shouldn't come at the direct expense of a smaller mountain that's also trying to bring people to the western Catskills, so I'm curious to hear the state's response.

What gives me pause is that the reporter didn't fact-check the spelling of the co-owner's first name (it's Laszlo, not Lazlo), and didn't even bother to fix it after the fact.

I get a Belleayre conditions report every morning, and it contains this:

"Belleayre Mountain is once again partnering with the Central Catskills Chamber of Commerce to provide economic stimulus to the region. The Central Catskills Chamber of Commerce, created to advance the economies and communities in the central Catskills area, has partnered with Belleayre to provide an economic jumpstart for area businesses beginning January 1st, 2011. Starting January 1st, 2011 through January 31st, any customer who purchases $50 or more in goods or services from a merchant, service or other business who belongs to the Central Catskills Chamber of Commerce will receive a Buy One Get One Lift Ticket voucher. For more information about the stimulus program please check us out on the web at www.belleayre.com. Come enjoy the day with us."


Plattekill is in a great spot for snow, but a tough spot for luring customers.  A huge percentage of potential customers have to come past Hunter, Windham or Belleayre to get to Roxbury. Long Island is crucial to Plattekill, and those customers probably drive past Belleayre.

I can see why Danielle and Laszlo would be upset about this. The Chamber should work to help all members as equally as possible.

I have heard many different versions about Bell's economic viability.  Bell is profitable, Bell is break-even, Bell lost $75,000 last year, Bell lost a million. I have not seen any proof of any of these claims. If someone has proof in either direction, please post it.

If Bell's operating costs are subsidized by the state, this would make this kind of promotion even tougher to take for the owners of Plattekill.

If I am misunderstanding the dynamics here, please educate me.

"I have heard many different versions about Bell's economic viability.  Bell is profitable, Bell is break-even, Bell lost $75,000 last year, Bell lost a million. I have not seen any proof of any of these claims. If someone has proof in either direction, please post it. "

Yup, it's like believing everything that the government says is true about their finances. "GDP is up! Unemployment is down!" Uh, yeah, right, and Oceania has won the war. Again.

This is what happens when you create a workfare state up there. Private enterprise is literally crowded out.

Seems as if Plattekill could offer the same deal. In fact, they could offer to honor the Belle coupons. This is just a free market competition.

adkskier wrote

Seems as if Plattekill could offer the same deal. In fact, they could offer to honor the Belle coupons. This is just a free market competition.

I think Plattekill's position is that they can't afford to offer that kind of volume in free tickets.  It all comes down to the numbers. IF Belleayre has been giving away (by some accounts) 16,000 free tickets a year, and has been losing money that NY has been making up, then it's not free market competition.

I've tried to find out what the real numbers are on the number of promotional tickets and profit/loss numbers for Bell, but had no luck. But that's where the truth lies.

"Seems as if Plattekill could offer the same deal. In fact, they could offer to honor the Belle coupons. This is just a free market competition."

Free market?? Does Plattekill have access to your tax dollars?

Are you familiar with Larry Kudlow on CNBC? He's a blowhard who always champions the free market, and then he chuckles when the camera is turned off and he gets driven to the local banker's club and hoists a few that you and I paid for with the last bailout.
There are no free markets in this country anymore.

adkskier wrote

 This is just a free market competition.

EXCEPT Belleayre pays no Federal or State income taxes or any profit taxes. Belle pays no real estate taxes. Belle pays no school taxes. Belle pays no mortage or any improvement costs. Belle never had to pay for the property, lifts, buildings, aspalth, snowmaking equipment, etc or anything. Belle pays no interest on loans. Belle pays no insurance costs. Belle pays no sales tax, even on multimillion dollar purchases , which the State pays for anyway. Belle likely gets discounted fuel and utility prices. There's probably more savings for Belle vs. Platte.

Those are absolutely huge savings Belle has over Platte. Any private ski area that had Belle's cost saving State benefits would make an absolute fortune.

While I'm not refering to ADKskier, I don't know why some are so willing to overlook this fantastic sweetheart business model these State run ski resorts have.

There's nothing free market about it. Nada.

Snowballs wrote

Those are absolutely huge savings Belle has over Platte. Any private ski area that had Belle's cost saving State benefits would make an absolute fortune.

And it'd be the same deal in the ADKs, IF there were any competing private areas left (Hickory doesn't count at this point). Ask our beloved webmaster -- the cries of Harvey Mountain wake him up on quiet winter nights.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Snowballs wrote

Those are absolutely huge savings Belle has over Platte. Any private ski area that had Belle's cost saving State benefits would make an absolute fortune.

And it'd be the same deal in the ADKs, IF there were any competing private areas left (Hickory doesn't count at this point). Ask our beloved webmaster -- the cries of Harvey Mountain wake him up on quiet winter nights.

I've got no problem with the state doing capital improvements on businesses that are break even or better, and create jobs.  I've also got no problem if they cut-back or delay capital improvements when they are in a (BIG!) jam.

To me, if the hill is OPERATING at a loss that is different.

* * *

I'll use any excuse to talk about Harvey Mountain.  First, to my knowledge, Harvey itself never had a lift served ski area.

Harvey Mountain Ski Area was actually on South Mountain, in the shadow of Harvey.  In this pic of the Harvey Mtn T Bar, the road in the background is the divider between Harvey and South.  You can still see the remains of the ski area from the summit of Harvey.

But I digress.  The presence of the Ski Bowl and Gore was a part of the reason that Harvey had a tough time surviving.  One big issue was signage.  Signs were restricted in the Park, but state-owned Gore had sign privileges not shared by the private hills.  

Thanks to Jeremy Davis of NELSAP for his help with this piece we did in 2008 on Harvey Mountain.

For my own selfish purposes, I like the real Harvey Mountain undeveloped. It's a great place to ski.

South Mountain too.