Belleayre fail says Catskill Heritage Alliance

I would love for a dream to happen and the Catskills get a share of people that go out west and to south Vt. I do not think it happen because as much as I love the cats we they do not have stuff for family to do when skiing is not their first choice and or conditions are not good. Yes they could build a stuff but how much does ORDA keep spending money when it not making money on Bell. Any other hill would go bankrupt. I dont see Bell pulling in all the people that go out west and north to ski and snowboard ever because of the lay out of the hill the lodge is in the middle so that takes away from and fun vertical and after 30% it gets really flat. I have not tried the glades out though. I guess one positive thing could happen with the hotel and resort at bell if did work maybe Bearpen would be able to open up again.

Nothing in the East is going to compete with Co or Ut

The Catskills competes with other close to NYC options.  The skiing is better than PA but the lodging and the rest of the experience is not as good.  In many families mom picks where they are going.  Moms want blue skiing, a short drive, a clean decent hotel, and good restaurants close by.  Bellearye and the Western Catskills resorts have the 1st two and lack the second two.

I go to Elk a lot more then Bell. I live equal distant to both to I moved last year. I still think Elk is much better hill then Bell.

Part of the problem is the base lodge in the middle of the hill. And another problem is the first 30%top of the hill is nice pitch then it gets flat as pancake (flatter then Okemo).

I mean it barley makes money now without any fancy stuff. Fancy stuff here will not work. Most of people I see the times I ski Route 28 Catskills mounts are not NYC people their are from Hudson valley and are locals. Their are deals out their to bring in locals for many years that were more then 50% less then average ticket would sell for at other 3Catskills hills.

Jamesdeluxe wrote

Follow his copy/paste all the way through and it's obvious what he's getting at -- Gore is getting a replacement for the Adirondack Express.

Sorry - I'm not going to work that hard to understand his point. Reading his short posts is hard enough.

I'm not sure what Scotty is trying to say or how James discerns that his issue is with the Adk Express.

I read about 1/3 of the audit and it seems like BS to me.  Some of the points made are diddling in the margins.  

There was a bad beverage sponsorship. OK fix it. I'm sure that ORDA could do things better.

But to suggest that somehow ORDA needs to break even seems a bit far fetched. As some have suggested, you could get rid of "the venues." Maybe that would help.  There are all kinds of govt programs that don't make any money, that what taxes are used for.

Leaving privatization of state land aside... unfund ORDA and/or the ski areas in the Adks and watch what happens. IMO it will make the amount "lost" on operations seem pretty small.

At some point NY decided:

It wanted public ownership of land in the parks.
It wanted to run facilities for winter sports on those lands.

If you want the state to break even on ORDA those decisions have to be revisited.

What does the DEC cost? How many employees? What is the revenue generated by each wilderness area?  Since there are no ticket sales I guess that makes it zero. I'd be really surprised if the DEC is breaking even on operations.

I do like the idea of scaling the development back a bit. Does that make me anti-development?

What's wrong with starting with the basics to make sure it works. A few ski in/skiouts on the far right wouldn't bother me, just don't stick them on the top of the ridge. It's not that hard.

Harvey wrote

But to suggest that somehow ORDA needs to break even seems a bit far fetched. As some have suggested, you could get rid of "the venues." Maybe that would help.  There are all kinds of govt programs that don't make any money, that what taxes are used for.

Leaving privatization of state land aside... unfund ORDA and/or the ski areas in the Adks and watch what happens. IMO it will make the amount "lost" on operations seem pretty small.

At some point NY decided:

It wanted public ownership of land in the parks.
It wanted to run facilities for winter sports on those lands.

If you want the state to break even on ORDA those decisions have to be revisited.

What does the DEC cost? How many employees? What is the revenue generated by each wilderness area?  Since there are no ticket sales I guess that makes it zero. I'd be really surprised if the DEC is breaking even on operations.

Not quite so simple Harv. NYS decided to protect the Adirondacks because it was a major watershed for NY City and because of the canal system. It was not meant to be a direct money maker. However it all really came down to economics and what poor eco-policy could do to that. Once it decided to make a dual use zone (inside the blue line) it now had to decide how to make that economically viable so that they did not loose the tax revenue. ORDA was born out of the financial investment the state made in the olympic venues, these needed to be maintained and utilized as part of the economic base for the Adirondacks. ORDAs mission is to operate in a fiscally responsible manner, does that mean it needs to break even - who knows, but it does not mean they spend like a drunken sailor.

The difference between ORDA and DEC is that DEC is a branch of government, they make policy and have enforcement powers. ORDA is an authority, they operate outside of the government. DEC operating Bell was a financial disaster, there is nothing in their mission that says they need to operate in a fiscally responsible manner. With that said I like much of what DEC does and thank the rangers whenever I see them. They are stewards of the park land, they are not there to make economic sense, they have no business running a business.

Harvey wrote

 What does the DEC cost? How many employees? I'd be really surprised if the DEC is breaking even on operations.

Yogi,,,,, the ranger's coming !

Ok sure but it's about more than breaking even Boo Boo. Doesn't matter what agency or authority, the metric is whether or not there is prudent use of money/resources and no excessive waste OR outright fraud, graft and corruption. One doesn't have to be smarter than the average bear to figure that out.

Many people on here repeatedly voice opinions that reveal they are not concerned or could care less about this as far as ORDUH! goes. That's silly especially with these authorities that receive gov money, gov facilities, etc and basically operate outside of due scrutiny.

I see no reason Belle shouldn't make money other than poor management/corruption. It's neighbors make money and they have to pay taxes, which Belle doesn't have to pay. Huge savings there.

P, I know what your saying is true and granted my "analysis" was not even close to rigorous.  But regardless of the classification/structure of ORDA or the DEC at some point NY state decided that those organizations were worth funding because what they do is worth the investment. It's paid for by public money and for me personally the difference in structure doesn't matter.

I'm a big fan of wild lands and the rangers who manage them.  I spend every free cent I've got in NY state (including taxes). If that public land wasn't there, I wouldn't.  None of that is measured in ORDA's or the DEC's P+L.

@Snowballs, don't expect Bell to make money. That area needs so much economic help and ORDA should be looked upon as the helping hand that can supply a long term vision and staying power to start tackling a job that will take decades.

Why the hell not ? Because it's government run ? Don't it's neighboring private ski areas make money ? If not, how do they stay in business ?

Doesn't Belle bask in a profit margin that's at least double (probably quadruple+) what the private areas have ? No taxes of any kind, including real estate, fed/state income tax, business tax, fuel tax, school tax, on  and on. Discounts on utilities, fuel. No SSI taxes and I believe the legislature pays the retirement costs for agencies and authorities.

And HEY! they never had a mortgage to pay and they didn't even have to pay for any infrastructure! OR capital improvements! WOW ! Should be an absolute money maker !!!! Private areas would die for such a killer deal !

PT, I recall you complaining about the severe anti-business climate of NY, yet here is Belle, free of ALL those constraints +++ and you don't think they should be profitable ?

So is Belle selling lift tickets for $5.00 and weekends are free ? Are all Belle employees paid in the 100k range ? What is that that makes Belle such an financial albatross in this board's mind when the private ski areas near Belle make money?  It doesn't add up given Belle's huge financial advantages over the successful neighboring private areas.

Reminds me of NYRA repeatedly crying poverty. The State gave them 600 mil a few years ago and two years later they cried bankruptcy was pending. Remember, NYRA enjoys all the enormous cost savings of being a gov authority.

Snowballs wrote

Why the hell not ? Because it's government run ? Don't it's neighboring private ski areas make money ? If not, how do they stay in business ?

Don't forget ORDA's Mission. It's not about making money, it's about economic development for a depressed area. They will not be allowed to loos money at a high rate, but they will be given a lot of slack if they help the po folk in the catskills.

Snowballs I dont understand your conspiracy theory. Can you lay it out specifically - who is pocketing the cash from this scam.

PeeTex wrote

Not quite so simple Harv. NYS decided to protect the Adirondacks because it was a major watershed for NY City

I assume you meant the Catskills, not the ADKs.

Thacheronix wrote

Snowballs I dont understand your conspiracy theory. Can you lay it out specifically - who is pocketing the cash from this scam.

Man, are you stretching it. How's about you deal with the valid points I raised and then lay out specifically how Belle could not be profitable ? Let's hear it so we don't consider you a " hach ".

I don't understand your naivety.

Your logic and debating skills are very sub-par. Behold reproof....

I don't know who pocketed the cash from the Savings and Loan, Enron or many other proven scams, but guess what they happened!

Jamesdeluxe wrote

PeeTex wrote

Not quite so simple Harv. NYS decided to protect the Adirondacks because it was a major watershed for NY City

I assume you meant the Catskills, not the ADKs.

Actually, no. Least you forget that the highest point of feed for the Hudson is Lake Tear of the Clouds just below the summit of Mt Marcy. The Hudson and the Mohawk provided the feed for the entire canal system and a major water source for the city.

Just an FWIW, James I've read some articles that also stated that fear of tree loss in the ADKS and subsequent NYC drinking water depletion was a concern at the time.

" Lest " we forget, the Connecticut river ran dry one summer back then due to deforestation and peeps got worried.  

Snowballs wrote

Why the hell not ? Because it's government run ? Don't it's neighboring private ski areas make money ? If not, how do they stay in business ?

Doesn't Belle bask in a profit margin that's at least double (probably quadruple+) what the private areas have ? No taxes of any kind, including real estate, fed/state income tax, business tax, fuel tax, school tax, on  and on. Discounts on utilities, fuel. No SSI taxes and I believe the legislature pays the retirement costs for agencies and authorities.

And HEY! they never had a mortgage to pay and they didn't even have to pay for any infrastructure! OR capital improvements! WOW ! Should be an absolute money maker !!!! Private areas would die for such a killer deal !

PT, I recall you complaining about the severe anti-business climate of NY, yet here is Belle, free of ALL those constraints +++ and you don't think they should be profitable ?

So is Belle selling lift tickets for $5.00 and weekends are free ? Are all Belle employees paid in the 100k range ? What is that that makes Belle such an financial albatross in this board's mind when the private ski areas near Belle make money?  It doesn't add up given Belle's huge financial advantages over the successful neighboring private areas.

Reminds me of NYRA repeatedly crying poverty. The State gave them 600 mil a few years ago and two years later they cried bankruptcy was pending. Remember, NYRA enjoys all the enormous cost savings of being a gov authority.

Lets separate this out. Yes, Bell should be able to make money compared to the other areas, they have access to plenty of low cost capital, no taxes and a lot of economy of scale. That I agree with. Should Bell actually make a lot of money on the whole, I say, not too much - why, because they should be plowing the excess into ventures that help the local economy so all prosper, they should make the pie larger not horde as much as they can for themselves. After all, it is a state Authority.

Yes - I think NYS taxes and corruption makes for an awful business climate. But ORDA is a nit and DEC is a flee in terms of the state budget.

Do I think ORDA is mismanaged, if I were running ORDA I would not hire a lot of the people they do and I would fire a whole bunch more. I would then get run out on a rail by the politicians. But then maybe it's better to hire who they do than leave them on welfare. Consider it workfare even if they spend half their day smoking pot in the woods. Yes - I have mixed feelings about ORDA. Somedays I wish they would get a real corporate leader, others I think they may have struck the right balance. I am sorry - but yes, I am conflicted.

Ok let's separate this out

PeeTex wrote

 Yes, Bell should be able to make money compared to the other areas, they have access to plenty of low cost capital, no taxes and a lot of economy of scale. That I agree with.

A convert. I labor not in vain.

PeeTex wrote

 Yes - I think NYS taxes and corruption makes for an awful business climate. But ORDA is a nit and DEC is a flee in terms of the state budget.

Citing ORDA/DEC's size is off point. The relevancy is that while private businesses must shoulder " NYS taxes and corruption makes for an awful business climate. " they still make money !!!

Belle does not shoulder " NYS taxes and corruption makes for an awful business climate" , Belle never has. Therefore this is one huge advantage that private ski areas don't have YET the private areas make a profit.

Why not Belle?

Is Belle a ghost town ? No. Does Belle have extremely cheap tickets compared to their neighbors ? No.

I don't know what their issue is. I do know it doesn't make any sense that they should lose money. In fact, there's a mountain of well established evidence against them losing money that actually points to them turning a pretty penny.

IMO, any profits they make, should be invested in the upkeep and improvement of the mtn so it's self sustaining just like, wait for it....... The Private Ski areas !

I don't feel that as citizens, we should give these gov ski areas a free pass, turn a blind eye or excuse red flags just because we ski there. In fact, just the opposite is true.

SBs - you just don't get where I am coming from and that's OK.
End of debate.