Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

freeheeln
Ethan Snow wrote
You know what Sno, as much as people (including but not limited to myself) occasionally find you slightly annoying, I can't agree with you more that snowmaking is the main source of livelihood for a ski area.
Of course every mt needs snowmaking, every thread needn't discuss it..Extremely  annoying.
Tele turns are optional not mandatory.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Ethan Snow
Yup. Just trying to be agreeable with everyone. No reason to continue talking about it.
I'll take boilerplate ice over wet snow any day
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Adrider83
It's called climate "change" for a reason..."Change" doesn't mean that every season will be warmer, but rather, we're seeing increasing volatility, with higher highs and lower lows.  The quantitative data speaks for itself.

I grew up in Clifton Park (mentioned in this video) on a tract of woods where I cut out my own downhill ski trail that I would ski after school every day...I don't think that's been remotely feasible the past ten years (except 14, and 15).

I don't even think you can really categorize 2014 and 2015 as exceptional years, in the grand scheme.  That's what winter used to be like out here.  Just look at this old video of Jay Peak from fifty years ago.  When is the last time you saw it like that?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrD2O04Cr80

This February pretty much blew away all temperature records across the country.  You can call it El Nino, but El Nino is driven, in large part by warm ocean temps, so I cannot help but think that climate change has a role in that too.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

skimore
Adrider83 wrote
  When is the last time you saw it like that?  
06/07 there was a 5-6' natural base in April. 08/09 was pretty good
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Adrider83
Yeah- no doubt they have had some very good years (not to mention that one year where they had like 600 inches)...but that video blew me away..maybe it's sepia tone nostalgia.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

skimore
In reply to this post by Adrider83
Here's like 8-10' in the Adirondacks end of march 11






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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

JamesP
The one takeaway should be , for all of us skiers and frankly everyone else, it's about time to force the politicians to do something about climate change. No more lies that it isn't happening , no more equivalency of argument when 97% of the climate and weather scientists from around the world agree. The argument over where it is happening is over. It's time to get real.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

tjf1967
I agree 100% lets get those pigs to increase snowmaking 100 % across all NYS owned ski resorts.  That is the best way to fight climate change on a local level.  VIVA MORE SNOW MAKING!!
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

raisingarizona
again.....snowmaking? the future of skiing? This shit is adorable.

You all better buckle up, shits likely about to get real in the next 20-30 years.
Z
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Z
What is this some Hollywood movie?

Climate change takes place over hundreds if not thousands of years.  That you guys think it's happening over a few years is laughable.  It is called weather.  Last year at this time it was 10 below zero as I write this.  Just because NBC says its so is not true - don't be a sheep.

if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

snoloco
Z is right.  It will take a long time for "climate change" to end skiing in the east.  Hopefully I'll be long dead by the time that happens.  For a long time, snowmaking improvements will be able to outgun warm winters.

Contrary to what will probably happen (most ski areas, especially the ORDA mountains do zero capital improvements).  This is the summer to do massive upgrades in the snowmaking department.  If your mountain skied well this season without the improvements, market it hard that it will be even better with the improvements.  You've already got a customer base that's pleased with your operation.  They might tell other people to go and bring in even more money.  

If your mountain skied poorly and had a bunch of terrain that didn't open, announce something like "doubling snowmaking capacity!!!" right when season passes go on sale.  This will help to retain customers who might've thought of going elsewhere.  I say that after a good year, upgrade lifts/lodges and after a bad year, upgrade snowmaking.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

JamesP
Hunter did well
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

2000yearoldskier
In reply to this post by snoloco
Snokid,have you ever earned a dollar?
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

snoloco
Yes, I got my first job last spring.
I've lived in New York my entire life.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

JamesP
In reply to this post by JamesP
Natural Climate change happens over thousands of years. We are experiencing man-made climate change, brought on by many factors but mainly the prolific burning of fossil fuels.  The computer models and scientific studies beginning in the 1980's all predicted where we would be by now, increasing temperatures , strange weather patterns. To simply write off the almost universal scientific agreement which is borne out by the actual physical findings is ridiculous. When your blood test says you have an infection and your symptoms  correlate to an infection, do you tell the doctor that a demon may have occupied your body?
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

raisingarizona
show us your data Sno.

I have only been alive for forty years so my observations aren't worth much but it sure seems like things are rapidly changing at this point, snowballing even. I think it's more obvious in the volatile south west.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

raisingarizona
In reply to this post by Z
I don't watch tv. I don't think it takes a scientist to make simple observations. The weather is getting weird.
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

MC2 5678F589
Northeast snowstorms are getting more severe due to climate change, according to this paper:

https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-public/what-we-can-and-cant-say-about-arctic-warming-and-us-winters

(Sorry for the long quote... Link at the bottom)

Two of the study’s authors, climatologist Judah Cohen of the Massachusetts-based climate and weather risk assessment group Atmospheric and Environmental Research and atmospheric scientist Jennifer Francis of Rutgers University, have long been proponents of the hypothesis that the warming Arctic is having profound effects on weather at the midlatitudes (SN: 3/12/15), from severe snowfalls to heat waves. It was Francis who, with a colleague, proposed in 2012 that sea ice loss in the Arctic slows the polar jet stream, a band of air currents flowing above the northern and middle latitudes of Earth. The slowed jet stream would become wavier, with large meanders that might jut deep into the midlatitudes; such waves, the researchers suggested, could allow winter storms to push south and linger.

The idea was compelling, particularly coming as it did on the heels of two massive snowstorms in the northeastern U.S. But many scientists were skeptical, suggesting that the underlying atmospheric dynamics — how dwindling sea ice in the far north might shape midlatitude weather — remained uncertain. Researchers have continued to wrangle over this question.

The latest study arrived in the wake of not two but three winter storms that battered the northeastern United States. Cohen and Francis, with coauthor Karl Pfeiffer of AER, analyzed the frequency of winter storms striking 12 U.S. cities since 1950, including Seattle, Chicago and New York City, and found a persistent correlation with Arctic temperatures, particularly for the northeast.

To do this, the researchers used two gauges of temperature anomalies. One, called the polar cap geopotential height anomaly, or PCH, is essentially a measure of troughs and ridges in pressure in the upper atmosphere — the high and low pressure zones familiar from television news. The other is the polar cap air temperature anomaly, or PCT, a gauge of temperature. Together, they describe variations in atmospheric heat and moisture, and how those translate into weather patterns.

The study’s finding supports what has been called the warm Arctic–cold continents hypothesis. But there’s still a missing piece, one that the authors acknowledge this observational study wasn’t intended to answer: what is driving those changes. Indeed, Arctic change in the past two decades has been profound — not just dwindling sea ice, but also noticeably increased precipitation, and thus snow cover, over Eurasia. Both factors may be linked to the observed weather patterns.

However, atmospheric teleconnections — long-distance links between climate phenomena, often spanning thousands of kilometers — are an exceedingly tangled web. Many factors related to greenhouse gas-induced climate change may feed into midlatitude weather anomalies. For instance, climate warming can alter the balance of heat between the Arctic and the tropics near Earth’s surface, which in turn can influence the jet stream.

Warm waters in the Gulf of Mexico can also feed extra energy into storms battering the U.S. East Coast, says Richard Alley, a climatologist at Pennsylvania State University in University Park who wasn’t involved in the new study. Storm tracks, the strength and frequency of large climate patterns such as the El Niño Southern Oscillation — greenhouse gases can affect them all, and there just isn’t a lot of data yet, he adds.

Climate simulations intended to determine the influence of Arctic sea ice loss have not yet found the smoking gun. One recent study suggests that the problem may lie with the computer models themselves, which struggle to fully reproduce real-world conditions.

Another issue is that the conditions set within such models can vary widely. Cohen notes that previous models’ conclusions about Arctic influence on lower-latitude weather have been all over the map. “Whatever your point of view is, there’s a model to support it,” he says. He is a member of a large project getting under way this year, dubbed the Polar Amplification Model Intercomparison Project, that aims to address that issue by coordinating model conditions to try to tease out the Arctic’s impact. The first results from these simulations should be available within a year.

“I’m not sure what will come of it,” Cohen says. “People tend to believe their own models the most.”

For now, the jury is still out on whether Arctic changes are the main driver behind the winter storms that have battered the northeastern U.S. in recent years. Yet even without a definitive answer, it may be worth keeping the topic in the news, if only to remind people that human-caused climate change is linked to cold snaps as much as to heat waves.
https://www.sciencenews.org/blog/science-public/what-we-can-and-cant-say-about-arctic-warming-and-us-winters
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Milo Maltbie
When I started skiing back in the late sixties, snowmaking was a fraction of what it is now.  Gore Mountain operated without snowmaking until 1977.  Still, it was common to plan week long trips to Killington or anywhere north of that. The Catskills were reliably snow covered from late November until April. The poor eastern snow coverage of 1980 was shocking, now it would be just another below average year.  New York skiing has devolved from a natural snow experience to hard snow groomers all the time.  

I'd say climate change has already wrecked Eastern skiing generally.  Even Utah and Colorado are far less reliable than they were 20 years ago.

mm
"Everywhere I turn, here I am." Susan Tedeschi
Z
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Re: Climate Change: The End of NY's Ski Industry?

Z
We definitely are seeing more peaks and valleys in our snow and temps.  I think ski areas south of the Albany are definitely a bad investment long term.

I did see recently that solar flair activity is waning and we are now entering a trough off a peak.  It runs in 7 year cycles I think it said and this will lower temps over the next 13 years when they will again be peaking.
if You French Fry when you should Pizza you are going to have a bad time
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