Dr Surge: Skiing Numbers Continue To Decline

Agree w mattchuck2, skiing needs to be cheaper and more accessable.  Giving locals a break is a good place to start or for the Orda areas give NYS residents a break. WF pricing will probably be approaching the $90/day mark for Holiday and High season pricing.  I think this keeps a lot of people away. My approach is that basically your fixed costs are there no matter what so why not get more people on the hill at a lower price than trying to make your profit by continually raising day pass prices? I know it's easy to be an armchair quarterback but the lifts are spinning all day anyway, why not get more people on the slopes with lower prices. Seems like a good way to grow the sport.

IMO Orda is doing a good job of trying to make it affordable for local kids to ski its suprising now little ski culture there is down in places like AuSable Forks.  My son is the only kid that is in NYSEF in his school and maybe 30% of the kids on his other sports teams ski or snowboard.  

The Local Youth Commision's offers a program for non Holiday Sunday's with lessons for around $75 for the season.  That is pretty darn cheap if you ask me.  Orda is giving the lessons away for well less than what they have to pay the staff I believe.  I recall that my learn to ski program 40 years ago was like $40 for the season.  Back then that was some serious cash.

The other route to consider for people locals that want to ski is to work at either Gore or Whiteface and then your whole family will get to ski free.  Of course the best job on the hill IMO is to teach passing on the love of the sport to others while you get to be out on the snow getting paid to teach.  We need more staff than Whiteface can usually hire and have to turn some business away due to lack of staff at times.

endoftheline wrote

Agree w mattchuck2, skiing needs to be cheaper and more accessable.

How is this going to happen? Skiing is expensive because of the high barriers that require huge amounts of money to start an area and huge expense of ongoing operations like snowmaking. It would be almost impossible to open a completely new area today, let alone a smaller and less costly "feeder" area. In the 1950s and the 1960s if there was no snow there was no skiing. Now we expect to have skiing at a minimum from roughly Dec to April. The 2011-2012 season was horrible yet the ski areas with snowmaking were open. If you want to know what skiing in the old days were like during a bad snow season before snowmaking just look at how many days Hickory was open in 2011-2012 - if it even did open (I am not sure).
 

endoftheline wrote

 Giving locals a break is a good place to start or for the Orda areas give NYS residents a break.

They did this for years at Belleayre and people were ready to shut the place down. So on one hand we as taxpayers want these ski areas to be as close to self supporting as possible, yet you suggest discounting for certain sections fof the NYS population.

 

endoftheline wrote

WF pricing will probably be approaching the $90/day mark for Holiday and High season pricing.  I think this keeps a lot of people away. My approach is that basically your fixed costs are there no matter what so why not get more people on the hill at a lower price than trying to make your profit by continually raising day pass prices? I know it's easy to be an armchair quarterback but the lifts are spinning all day anyway, why not get more people on the slopes with lower prices. Seems like a good way to grow the sport.

They charge based on what people will pay. Eco 101 - higher demand allows for higher prices. Midweek prices for Gore are only Mon/Tues/Wed ($59). The weekend starts Thursday morning at Gore and prices go up to $75. Prices are a few dollars higher during holiday periods.

Skiing is expensive. There is no way around that. However, you can find deals whether it is thru clubs, frequent skier cards, or online purchases. Last March 23/24 (Sat/Sun) I skied at Stratton for $55 a day. I bought the 2 day ticket about a week in advance online. The conditions were excellent, the whole mountain was open, and the sun was still up when the lifts closed at 4pm. Maybe the industry needs to figure out how to get people to the mountain after March 1st.

In addition to being expensive it can also be a logistical nightmare for a family. The weather can be brutal and dangerous. The car ride can take multiple hours.  It takes a certain kind of person to ski and perhaps that is why such a small % of the US population skis.

Yes, skiing is expensive.  Since I work for the mountian and get free and discounted tickets, I am "glad" it is for selfish reasons, because of less long lift lines.    


However I think the point is...it does not have to be expensive.  By keeping it expensive, we 'may' be losing market share of the young folks.   The author repeated synically "baby boomers will live forever" several times.   From what I gather, he was trying to say, and I might agree, it is our generation that is skiing, taking friends skiing,  taking our kids skiing, grandkids skiing.   However when our generation goes, that may be it.    Boomers are the "driving" force.    

He did have some good stats, but I have also heard opposite things from other schools of thought believing the industry is doing just fine.    


My point is,  it does not have to be expensive.  Yes the mountains are pricing it where people will pay.   That is "some" people, others don't bother anymore.       My friends brought their kids to a very cheap hill where I work, they still dropped $500 dollars on tickets, rentals, lunch, beer.    That is a heck of a hit for 5 people.    True, cheap for one day of fun, (compared to Disney) but way too expensive to go 5 days a year.  They have not been back in 3 years, they "talk" about the fun they had, but they don't come back. I say it is the money.  

Alternative as he points out:  Lower the $75 dollar saturday pass to $50 dollars, I bet 60-70% would spend the other $25 bucks in the store/cafeteria/bar.    Bonus, instead of one visit for that person per year, they might get 3.     We all see it, as the price of tickets go up, more folks pack their lunch, the total dollars spent may be staying the same.    I have no statistics on that.   I will say that while I get a 40% discount on my Gatoraide, which only then costs me $2.25.  I only buy mountain Gatoraide when  I forget to pack the same size  that I buy at the Dollar Store, for a dollar, knowing they are making money too.    My family economics is that I give up the chore of mixing my own Gatoraide from powder---likely $0.10 cents---a bottle for the convienence of letting the Dollar Store sell it to me.   If my mountain reduced the price to $2.00, would they sell 3x as much?  I would say yes.  I am no expert in sales, obviously, but I am a consumer.          

I don't pay over $2.50 for a non-alcoholic drink at any mountain, or anywhere else.   Water please.     Drinks are my lift ticket analogy.   I go to about ten Baltimore  Oriole games a summer.  I used to set my beer limit at 2 @ $6.50, with tip = $16.00.  Owner raised beer price to $8.00, justified by adding 2 ounces to cup.    I now drink one in the lot before the game and buy one @ $10.00 tip included.   Do I have the money to buy 5 beers per game? Yes.   But I am not spending it that way.      Net loss for the O's and sadly the beer guy. If he raises the price to $9.00 next year, I drink two in the lot.   Some will argue, but people are still buying $9.00 beers so the price is justified.    Maybe, but how many people are buying 3 of those.   Do the math, more at a bit cheaper is better than less more expensive.   Those paying enjoy lower lift lines.          

Used to get free admission to Washington Caps hockey games ($45.00 tickets)  however I still spent $15 on parking, and $45 on beer.    $60.00   Have not been to a Caps game since my source dried up.    I save $60 dollars, they loose it.     Not saying they should give tickets away, just driving the economics of spending.   I'm not spending $100 on a hockey game.  If I go to a hockey game, I want to drink a few beers, but I can't do both in my floating budget, so I drink beer at the bar watching hockey.     I think the same can be said for many recreational skiers.    Having a drink after skiing is a perfect marriage. There is a dollar limit....it is getting exceeded.    

More customer's = longer lines, which people, including me, don't want.   However long lines also means that people love it and will continue doing it for years to come. Like the denist chair, you dont want it, but you need it.      I have photos of 2 hour lift lines at my little mountain.  Everyone is smiling in the photos.   I stood in long lines, like many other baby boomers.  Us line standers still love skiing and according to what I have been reading, will live forever.    ;)
 

In addition to being expensive it can also be a logistical nightmare for a family. The weather can be brutal and dangerous. The car ride can take multiple hours.  It takes a certain kind of person to ski and perhaps that is why such a small % of the US population skis.

This is likely the number one reason I love to ski, or people who chose to ski.    Adverse selection.   Those that do, are awesome, happy, organized, flexible people.

New owners of West had a good take on this in that other thread. They said they can't charge $55 for a lift ticket, when people can go to Gore for $70 (or whatever). They wanted to lower the price and make up for it in volume... Seems like this should be possible at a lot of smaller places. Mid size mountain + multiweek programs (races, lessons, etc.) should be a gold mine.

I think it's false that skiing needs to be expensive. I did a lot of free skiing last year (BC, defunct ski areas, etc.). Dynamite Hill is free. Yes, eventually resorts need snowmaking, but advances in efficiency should make that cheaper. Insurance is a killer. No idea how to get around that.

Coach Z wrote

We need more staff than Whiteface can usually hire and have to turn some business away due to lack of staff at times.

I find it interesting that the supply and demand argument is used to determine the price that resorts should charge, but supply and demand in the labor market is not a consideration. Easy solution to not having enough workers: pay more $.

mattchuck2 wrote

New owners of West had a good take on this in that other thread. They said they can't charge $55 for a lift ticket, when people can go to Gore for $70 (or whatever). They wanted to lower the price and make up for it in volume... Seems like this should be possible at a lot of smaller places. Mid size mountain + multiweek programs (races, lessons, etc.) should be a gold mine.

I think it's false that skiing needs to be expensive.

Agree.  So-called feeder hills like West and Willard are vitally important because (1) they provide a lower-cost alternative and (2) they introduce people to the sport.

I believe there are many ways for skiing to be more affordable: school programs, town rec programs, numerous deals & discounts like the WF Super Sundays and Gore/WF Coca-Cola Wednesdays.  Perhaps the ultimate in affordability is SkiVenture, the 100' vert club hill in northern Schenectady County.  $60 - yes, sixty bucks - gets you family membership for the year with 24/7 access to the slopes, tows and lights.  In many ways SkiVenture embodies exactly the things you talked about in your "Why Skiing Should Be More Like Bowling" post, Matt.  It's cheap, close to home, social.  Gear is passed down between families.  Members hang at the lodge and grill burgers and drink beer.  Everyone takes a turn operating the lifts.  It's the complete opposite end of the spectrum from a skiing experience at, say, Stratton, a throwback to the days of the local ski hills that have long since gone NELSAP.  I did a trip report on SkiVenture two or three years ago, here.  Jeremy did one about the same time on the NELSAP site, here.

I:)skiing wrote

This is likely the number one reason I love to ski, or people who chose to ski.    Adverse selection.   Those that do, are awesome, happy, organized, flexible people.

between this and the hockey/beer budget post - I like the way you think  

Hi Harvey!  Dr Surge here.  Thanks for reading the article!  Whether you all agree or disagree with my assessment of the industry, I'm just happy to keep the conversation going in hopes of bringing some sanity to the industry.  
In response to the decline many resorts have started to offer ridiculous add-ons, or bonuses in order to drive more business.

But, once again they're missing the point.  The newest trend is reciprocal agreements, where if you buy a pass to one area, you get a few free days at another.  The problem is that you STILL have to be relatively wealthy to take advantage of it.  For example, buy a pass to Arapahoe Basin, CO, get two free days at Taos, NM, or vice versa. Alan Henceroth, Arapahoe Basin’s Chief Operating Officer is quoted as saying "Taos and A-Basin are a perfect fit.” A perfect fit?  Round trip driving distance is 564 miles!! Are you F'ing kidding me!?  Or the Powder Alliance pass, or the Mountain Collective ski pass, touted as  "an unprecedented collaboration.." Really!?  Unprecedented for whom?  Stockholders?

I have some extremely wealthy friends who laughed their asses off at the thought of buying one of these passes, b/c even if they have the money it's still unreasonable to take the time off from work to get their money's worth.  It's a marketing ploy, plain and simple.

Fortunately, I live in Colorado and have access to Vail Resort's Epic Local pass.  Hands down the best the industry has to offer.  $549 gets me access to Breckenridge, Keystone, A-Basin, Vail, and Beaver Creek.  For about $100 more, I also get Eldora, Kirkwood, Northstar @ Tahoe, Heavenly, Canyons and some others not worth mentioning. Amazing deal but you still have to get to California or Utah to use it. This will be the first year in 28 years of skiing that I'll actually go to Tahoe to use the pass.
It's gotten to the point that you really have to plan ahead if you want to get your money's worth. If you live in Colorado, California, Oregon, or Michigan, or plan on visiting this winter, check out the Shell gas station lift ticket deal: http://skifreedeals.com/  Buy 10 gallons of gas, get a buy one get one free coupon.

Welcome Surge. We cheapskates must work together.

Yeah, the Mountain Collective is a marketing "ploy", but, hey, it's an awesome "ploy", so I bought it anyway, because there isn't much downside. If I decide to go to Alta/Snowbird for a week, I'm a little ahead, and, if the snow is awful there (sometimes it happens in Utah. sometimes) I can do a week in Whistler. I'm not sure why you're wealthy friends think it's ridiculous. If you're truly wealthy, you're not working and out there chasing storms, and this pass is perfect for that, paired up with your Epic pass.

Mobil has had a similar deal at their pumps in the northeast for various hills. My friend used to have the timing down to a science on his drive up to Killington.

mattchuck2 wrote

 I'm calling for the return of local and hyperlocal areas, with cheap prices and more beer. Dynamite Hill + a bar would be great for a lot of small ADK and New England towns.

One could go to Snowridge on a day like this, pay 30 bucks, ski 4hrs straight of knee deep snow, have cheap beers in cool little bar and there still is only 20 people here...........probably having the best skiing in NY.

Rock on, fellow cheapskate!

Here's a cheapskate tip from my friend, Man Candy, but I'm sure it's frown upon at best, illegal at worst. Sort of a "Steal This Book" inspired idea, I suppose. He justifies it by saying he ends up spending his "savings" on food and apres drinks anyway, so the money still gets funneled into the community one way or another. Only get 10 gallons of gas at shell every time you fill up. Collect all BOGOs you can during the season.  Get your friends to do the same, especially if they don't ski.  Head to any participating resort and while getting your BOGO, sell just enough of the coupons to others in line, for say, $5-20 a piece, in order to pay for your ticket.  Everyone wins with a MUCH cheaper ticket and you ski for free that day.

While I agree 100% that the Mountain Collective is awesome, (I almost got it this year, and probably will next) I call it a "ploy" because while you and I may be the perfect customers for the pass, it's not doing much for the "skiing is too expensive" or the "I don't have time to travel" demographic who continue to leave the sport or head to the backcountry.  As one commenter pointed out, skiing has always been seen as a thing rich people do. A "wicked-cool dream pass" like the Mountain Collective further reinforces a stereotype that is harmful to the future success of the industry b/c in order to use it, first you have to have the time/money, then you have to dedicate that time/money to "go to Alta/Snowbird for a week or "do a week in Whistler".  

The average number of days skied/person in 2012/13 was 3.6 (56.6 mil skier visits/15.6 mil skiers). You need to ski at least 5 days to break even with the MC pass and you only get 2 at each so you have to travel to at least 3 separate ski areas to do it.  No matter how 'unprecedented' it is, It just doesn't reach the mainstream ski community, and more importantly, newcomers.

skimore wrote

One could go to Snowridge on a day like this, pay 30 bucks, ski 4hrs straight of knee deep snow, have cheap beers in cool little bar and there still is only 20 people here...........probably having the best skiing in NY.

It's like Plattekill with less vert and more snow.  Maybe even lower key than Plattekill if that is possible.

Hey Doc, welcome.

Dr Surge wrote

While I agree 100% that the Mountain Collective is awesome, (I almost got it this year, and probably will next) I call it a "ploy" because while you and I may be the perfect customers for the pass, it's not doing much for the "skiing is too expensive" or the "I don't have time to travel" demographic who continue to leave the sport or head to the backcountry.  As one commenter pointed out, skiing has always been seen as a thing rich people do. A "wicked-cool dream pass" like the Mountain Collective further reinforces a stereotype that is harmful to the future success of the industry b/c in order to use it, first you have to have the time/money, then you have to dedicate that time/money to "go to Alta/Snowbird for a week or "do a week in Whistler".  

The average number of days skied/person in 2012/13 was 3.6 (56.6 mil skier visits/15.6 mil skiers). You need to ski at least 5 days to break even with the MC pass and you only get 2 at each so you have to travel to at least 3 separate ski areas to do it.  No matter how 'unprecedented' it is, It just doesn't reach the mainstream ski community, and more importantly, newcomers.

Well, yeah, but, I'm encouraged to see that a company like Liftopia even exists, and is attempting to apply the same pricing model to skiing that the airlines and even baseball teams have adopted to fill empty seats. The internet could be a savior in making skiing more affordable.
I know the Collective pass probably won't mean squat to the average family learning to ski, but, if you're a little above average in income, and have a few weeks to spend out west, it can save you a ton of money at some awfully good hills. it's a start.

skimore wrote

damn.

My wife and I are both 28.  We both are going on our 3rd midweek pass to Gore.  We are the target demographic that the mountains want.  She took her first lesson there.  With that though, it is nearly impossible to get our friends to go with us simply due to cost.  If they can take off work and can go on a Wed. then they might go.  IF they own gear.  We are lucky enough to have jobs that have odd hours so we get a lot of time in midweek (29 days last season).  With "season pass math" that works out pretty good.  This is the only way I can afford to do it.  My feeling is if I am going to spend the money I'm going to get the most out of it as possible.  Would I take a hundred dollar hit every weekend?... No.  We brown bag it, buy gear on ebay, go to every shop sale, and do anything else we can do to save money.  It can be done, but we ski in quantity and divide.  Most people my age don't have the time or the funds to do that.  

It does surprise me that ORDA has not offered one of the under 30 passes like Stratton does.  I know a lot of people that have that pass and ski the death out of it.  The college discounts are great... but with many of us having to pay a second rent towards loans the jump from a 250 dollar pass while in school to a 750 dollar pass the second your out is a big one.  I would love to see the retention numbers from people that had a college pass.  

The mountain I grew up on in St. Louis was a 310' hill... with full snow making.  They were open from 8am to 2am on weekends and 11pm on weekdays.  The season was 70 days long if they were lucky.  With all that against them they were able to get a person on the mountain with rental gear for 40 bucks a day in the 90's.  That is now in the 55-75 dollar range.  But... the place was packed all the time.  They did the advertising.  They did the outreach.  The guy who owned that mountain started Peak Resorts and now owns Mount Snow along with a handful of other resorts.  He has figured something out that other mountains can't.  

Whoever runs Willard seems to have it figured out, too.

I probably wouldn't be much of a skier at all if I didn't work a 3- 4 day week in the 80s and 90s, with at least one of those days on the weekend. I also had a midweek Killington pass at that time, and remember driving home sometimes past the line of cars coming in on Friday night thinking, "so long, suckers". Quality of skiing was much better, and much cheaper. Right now is one of the first times in my life I have worked the 9-5 M-F thing, and, I must say, it sucks for skiing.

There's a lot more women around on the weekend, though.

I think the ORDA season passes(all types) should come with perks like other areas offer. Specifically, offer discounted day passes that the passholder can offer to friends or family.  Just looking at the Squaw/Alpine deal,  last season all passholders had 4 mid week day passes they could offer to friends or whoever for $50. and 4 weekend day passes for $75.
      I think my WF full boat pass offered one discounted day pass last yr if that.  If you want to grow the sport, you need to get more people on the hill.  

mattchuck2 wrote

Coach Z wrote

We need more staff than Whiteface can usually hire and have to turn some business away due to lack of staff at times.

I find it interesting that the supply and demand argument is used to determine the price that resorts should charge, but supply and demand in the labor market is not a consideration. Easy solution to not having enough workers: pay more $.

Matt I'm sure neither one of us is getting rich teaching.  We do it because we love it.  I doubt orda is going to raise what they pay us anytime soon.  There is some talk of WF going to the G pay system.  At that point it may not be worth spending the time to teach.  Time is very valuable to me at my place in life.