Electric Cars

Volvo, a relatively small auto manufacturer owned by the Chinese, has said that all models introduced after 2019 will rely on electricity, either as hybrids or pure electric cars.

It seems that China is leading this effort in part because their urban air quality especially bad and likely to get worse as more Chinese get cars.

Many experts believe that battery technology is the key and the tipping point will occur when electric cars can go 200-225 miles on a charge.

URL is a bit misleading:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/autos/volvo-going-all-electric-first-automaker-ditch-combustion-engine-n779791

For the environment, it makes sense not to change the car (e.g. moving to all Smart cars) but instead to change the way it's powered.

Volvo has to do something to try and stay in the game. They're losing market share like it was their job.

I expect Volvo to go the way of Saab , too small a niche market , expensive to repair , limited  service locations , and so i think it is a dead man walking

The Chinese gov't is all in on alternatives, I don't think they are letting Volvo go down.

I'm sure there must have been a discussion on here of all the environmental problems with manufacturing and disposing of car batteries. Has there been a breakthrough I haven't heard about? There's also the problem of electricity generation. My perception is that China is mainly a coal-powered country (and mainly the dirtiest burning types) and a good percentage of their pollution is from factories. Again, if I'm out of date, somebody correct me. I'm not sure what China's gonna gain by switching to a coal-powered vehicle fleet.

Responsible battery production and recycling are surely key issues.

Re emissions:  If all cars were electric and if all electricity was produced with coal, emissions would be reduced.

Brownski wrote

I'm sure there must have been a discussion on here of all the environmental problems with manufacturing and disposing of car batteries. Has there been a breakthrough I haven't heard about? There's also the problem of electricity generation. My perception is that China is mainly a coal-powered country (and mainly the dirtiest burning types) and a good percentage of their pollution is from factories. Again, if I'm out of date, somebody correct me. I'm not sure what China's gonna gain by switching to a coal-powered vehicle fleet.

It's been talked about a lot in the past. You have not missed anything. Electric cars only make sense if you are willing to put in nuclear breeder power plants by the long ton. You also need to put in a system for swapping battery's out so a "recharge" takes minutes and not hours. The Chinese may make it work but it won't be on coal.

Harvey wrote

Responsible battery production and recycling are surely key issues.

Re emissions:  If all cars were electric and if all electricity was produced with coal, emissions would be reduced.

I am not sure where you got that data. If it were natural gas, solar, wind or nuclear I could see that but not coal.

If this image is accurate it looks like I overstated it.

This shows how much MPG cars would have to get by region to equal the efficiency of an all electric fleet.  In the midwest were coal reliance is heaviest (but not close to 100%) the numbers reflect an improvement, but not nearly as dramatic as NY or CA.

Electric cars make a lot of sense if you integrate them into the electric system in a way that improves electric reliability.  If a large number of parked cars hooked up to the system, their batteries could be used to stabilize voltage and store energy.  That would allow more solar capacity top be added.  The cool thing is that you would mostly charge the cars during low load hours, when energy costs are lower and only the cleanest plants run. (that's why electric is cleaner even in coal areas.) You really don't need to add generating capacity as mush as you need to develop the distribution system to optimize the use of the system.
The Chinese seem determined to go to electric cars.  Maybe they figure it makes sense to skip building out the gasoline infrastructure and just go electric before they have a billion cars. (Or maybe their Communist overlords just want Teslas.)  Gasoline is like the VHS of transportation.  If electric had become the dominant power source back in the day, who would trade their battery for a tankful of explosive liquid now?

mm

Milo Maltbie wrote

 If electric had become the dominant power source back in the day, who would trade their battery for a tankful of explosive liquid now?

mm

Anyone who needs torque and horsepower to tow/haul something.

 

Milo Maltbie wrote

If a large number of parked cars hooked up to the system, their batteries could be used to stabilize voltage and store energy.

This is a very cool idea.

I agree the Chinese are motivated to make it happen.  There are potentially big advantages to being a huge and powerful dictatorship.  Still, I think that we would crush them on the world market if we had the vision.

I'm all for electric cars once the issues are worked out. I'm not impressed by a 200 mile range though. That always struck me as too low a bar. It isn't nearly enough range for the way I drive. I've always wondered why a straight diesel/electric system wouldn't be more efficient then what we have now. They're very common for heavy machinery, locomotives and maritime applications. Maybe one of the engineer types here can explain why it can't be scaled down to passenger vehicles.

campgottagopee wrote

Milo Maltbie wrote

 If electric had become the dominant power source back in the day, who would trade their battery for a tankful of explosive liquid now?

mm

Anyone who needs torque and horsepower to tow/haul something.

I don't know much about cars, but this seems pretty good:

http://jalopnik.com/here-is-how-much-torque-the-tesla-model-s-p100d-makes-o-1792688704

Yes, difference between torque needed for speed vs torque and hp for towing capacity.

Ya ain't gonna haul nothing with one of those fancy red Tesla's

Ifing yous aint a haulin, yous aint merican mofo! RedNeckNation!

Milo Maltbie wrote

Maybe they figure it makes sense to skip building out the gasoline infrastructure and just go electric before they have a billion cars.  

Based on the pollution, they have to.  Full-on electric cars need to be driven differently....it's a cultural change that I don't think many people are up for, especially older people and those in colder climates (elec. cars use heated windshields and heated seats as a heat/fan combination, although available, drains the battery quickly).  Maybe their driving distances are different, too.

Milo Maltbie wrote

Gasoline is like the VHS of transportation.  If electric had become the dominant power source back in the day, who would trade their battery for a tankful of explosive liquid now?

mm

I suppose that line of thought could prevent a shift to a hydrogen fuel cell car.  But then again, most of us have propane tanks on the deck where we entertain friends, family and kids.  Hydrogen is great - especially if electrolyzed via solar energy.

If any of you are teachers, or want to get your kids into science, the H-racer is a pretty cool car.

This is a smart move for Volvo as they can leverage Geely's electric/battery capabilities. There is no way Geely lets Volvo go down. Volvo is an important way to legitimize Geely in the luxury vehicle market.

Full electric for skiers is not a good choice right now. Cold kills battery capacity and throw in the mentioned heat needed in the winter and your range is greatly reduced. Adding a 30-40 minute stop to recharge every 200 miles also sucks. Electric could work in a 2 car family with a guaranteed place to park and charge the electric vehicle. The other vehicle could be the distance/winter vehicle using gas, diesel, or a gas/hybrid. I guess people who are not regularly driving over 200 miles (like a weekend skier) could have go electric and rent when they need a longer drive. Electrics are great in the city, but parking and charging in a city can be difficult.

We could probably go with 1 electric in our family, but the choices are either too expensive and/or too small.

Electric would be an option for my wife's car. Short hilly commute, car sits idle on winter weekends when we use the CRV to go to the mountains.  

She has a Prius and digs it. It's 6 years old and we may try to keep it for 12. I'm curious about batteries.  Looks like it's about 2000 to replace. Warrantee has another 2 years.