Gore Early Season Plan 15-16

pro2860 wrote

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

PeeTex wrote

the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

It’s a beautiful sunny day out and I was enthused to get started on my plan for it. I was going to do some yard work, get in a good bike ride, take the dog for a long walk and then do steaks and beer on the deck for dinner with my wife.  After reading this though I think I’ll just close the curtains and go back to bed. What's the point? I give up.

That sounds like a good plan. I like to start my day off slow and then taper off from there...

Harvey wrote

So then what is your theory on why improvements aren't happening fast enough for you?

(It's a serious question, I am far from an expert on this stuff.)

He is an expert? He's a high school kid with zero real world experience. It amazes me that you guys argue with him.

I think Sno likes the attention he gets here, which is fine. I'm not sure what the adults in the room get.

I just got up to use the bathroom, that happens a lot when you're old and full of hopelessness. Back to bed for me.

I didn't say he was an expert. I said I'm not. What I know I learned in a few conversations with Mike Pratt.

I am curious to hear why he thinks his list of demands isn't being met.  

I'm also curious why sno skis at Gore.

Harv,   Very nice move:    If one looks to argue, cite demands or facts.    If one looks to win debates, he asks questions.    


Why is Orda/Gore not opening faster?

Why does one ski at Gore if the cup seems to be more empty than full in an area of full cups?  

Not looking to win anything, curious about the answers. Probably would be just as happy if he'd let it go, but that doesn't seem like an option.

I'm coming from a completely different place vs sno. To me manmade snow is necessary evil in the east. Not the holy grail, not something to pursue.  The reason I ski is because I hope to feel natural underneath my feet.

Maybe his dad could write a check for those compressors!

There are many portable air compressors out there that are used for construction typically.  If they got their hands on as many of the larger ones as they could for the months of November, December, and January, they could greatly increase air capacity and you'd notice the difference big time.  By February, all they're doing is resurfacing, so they wouldn't need the extra power anymore.

If they spent a million dollars on renting the compressors and operating them each year, they could probably make up for that in Christmas week revenue that they got from being fully operational.

Fact: Gore's snowmaking capacity has increased significantly, especially over the past 5 years.

Fact: Gore's snowmaking capacity is still significantly underpowered relative to its competitors (Killington, Stratton, Hunter, etc) when you measure the amount of time it takes to cover its snowmaking trails.  At 30 acre/feet per day, it takes Gore more than 13 days to cover their 400 acres of snowmaking terrain in one foot of snow.  Kmart can cover their snowmaking trails in 7.5 days, Hunter in 4 days. (I've got a chart on my blog with all the supporting numbers.)

Harv is correct, there is a shortage of compressed air capacity (water pumping capacity is OK).  Recent improvements in Gore's snowmaking have come from increased utilization of low-energy guns that can produce snow using much less compressed air.  But Gore is now at a point of diminishing returns, the easy efficiency gains have already been achieved.

If Gore wants to compete with Vermont for skiers, snowmaking capacity (mostly compressed air) needs to be increased by 50 to 100%.  That's probably a $2 million dollar investment (just a ballpark guess).  Gore doesn't necessarily need to blow more total snow (though I'd like them to blow at least a little more), they just need to pump out the same amount quicker, particularly in early season for terrain expansion.  Once the upfront capital expenditure is made, the annual operating costs aren't that much more (there would be additional snowmaking crew, perhaps you'd spike the demand meter higher and drive utility costs up slightly).

Snoloco's idea of leasing compressors makes some sense.  My guess is that compressors could be leased for a 3-month period for something well under 10% of their cost new.

Harvey wrote

I'm coming from a completely different place vs sno. To me manmade snow is necessary evil in the east. Not the holy grail, not something to pursue.  The reason I ski is because I hope to feel natural underneath my feet.

I agree with that sentiment, but Gore's got plenty of natural snow terrain:  the glades.  In the east, you've got to have enough snowmaking capacity to get your trails open on a reasonable schedule, and hopefully enough dough in the budget to keep them resurfaced.  That's what brings in the skiers to pay the bills to keep the ski area in business.  And you can't get to the glades if the trails are closed.  Well, maybe you can but...

Condor wrote

PeeTex wrote

I think all you guys would like to see Gore open a lot of terrain early. What I find fascinating is that when Sno suggests it, the response is not strongly positive. The enthusiasm of youth versus the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

We would absolutely love to see gore have everything running and open by Christmas. We understand that isn't going to happen most of the time and I'm okay with it. The reason sno gets shit is because he brings up the same topic in 12 different threads. He has the same arguments in all those threads, and by arguements they are more like demands. And when the people give him the same response, he goes and types his rants comparing gore to 12 other mountains that are totally different. I don't get why sno skis at gore. I really don't. You come from jersey. What's 1.5hrs more to go to a southern Vermont mountain that clearly has everything your little heart could desire? If you want to ski gore come during presidents week when it will be able to remotely satisfy you.

Sno, once you're at Exit 23 on I-87, the travel time to Stratton is the same as to Gore. Just go to Stratton. Otherwise, you're posting the same thing over and over and expecting a different result than what you're getting here. There's a name for that.

The biggest snowmaking months are November, December, and January.  Once you hit February, the mountain should have all their snowmaking trails open and then it's just resurfacing.  

Paying the rental fees for however many extra compressors they need to get a significant capacity increase wouldn't be nearly as much as installing that kind of capacity.  What times fall between 11/1 and 1/31?  The holidays, not much construction really happens over those times if you ask me.  Also, I'm by no means an expert on construction and building, but it would be my guess that more is happening during the warmer months than the colder months.  For that reason, the company that would rent industrial strength air compressors might have some extras around during the colder months, so they might be willing to give Gore a good deal on some.

The extra plumbing is relatively minimal to have the extra compressors.  All they need is a pipe to some area near the maintenance building where they could park the compressors and some way to hook the compressors up.  They already have the water capacity, so this solution would get them more air capacity for a good price.  

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

PeeTex wrote

the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

It’s a beautiful sunny day out and I was enthused to get started on my plan for it. I was going to do some yard work, get in a good bike ride, take the dog for a long walk and then do steaks and beer on the deck for dinner with my wife.  After reading this though I think I’ll just close the curtains and go back to bed. What's the point? I give up.

I find several good strong drinks with breakfast can get the day going much better. This doesn't relieve that feeling of hopelessness but it does make the day go by much better, one more day closer to death...

Ugh.

snoloco wrote

 For that reason, the company that would rent industrial strength air compressors might have some extras around during the colder months, so they might be willing to give Gore a good deal on some.

The extra plumbing is relatively minimal to have the extra compressors.  All they need is a pipe to some area near the maintenance building where they could park the compressors and some way to hook the compressors up.  They already have the water capacity, so this solution would get them more air capacity for a good price.

Ignorance is bliss.

I couldn't even begin to bore with you with FACTS about air compressor requirements for snowmaking operations. But I'm pretty sure they ain't renting a tow-behind "construction" model that sees service running multiple air tools and light equipment. Snowmaking needs some serious scfm---you don't get that from the rental counter at Home Depot. To say nothing of the power needed to run those larger units. Does this kid think Gore just has spare 440V outlets spread along every trail?

Time to move on sno.....find something else to talk about....

SIAWOL wrote

Ignorance is bliss.

Your out of your league here - Sno is well researched. Indeed ski areas do rent industrial air compressors to augment snowmaking. These are big diesel powered units that come in on the back of a semi trailer. It could be done, but at a cost.

The bush used to do that under Les Otten, I wish they'd feed the low-e guns some of that air now.

PeeTex wrote

SIAWOL wrote

Ignorance is bliss.

Your out of your league here - Sno is well researched. Indeed ski areas do rent industrial air compressors to augment snowmaking. These are big diesel powered units that come in on the back of a semi trailer. It could be done, but at a cost.

What Peetex said is what I had in mind.  Killington and Okemo both do this to my knowledge.  If they do it, why can't Gore.  It's still gotta be cheaper to rent the industrial air compressors than to build a whole new building and buy them new.

PeeTex wrote

I think they should stay closed until they can cover all the trails with snow and run all the lifts.

I agree. Delay the opening until more trails are ready and really well covered (not the white ribbon of death on Quicksilver). Use the money saved to extend the season when the conditions merit skiing. Let's face it. Opening day is social, but the skiing is mediocre at best.

I've seen those units over at Gore's maintenance building before. They used to use them.

Score yet another one for Sno.

snoloco wrote

Killington and Okemo both do this to my knowledge.  If they do it, why can't Gore. It's still gotta be cheaper to rent the industrial air compressors than to build a whole new building and buy them new.

Different funding sources. Different financial objectives. Different stakeholders.

As for cheaper to rent - that's  operating budget, while purchasing a compressor and new building is capital budget. While they are both money, they are different colors with different real costs depending on the organizations structure.

You might think you have all the answers because you've memorized some facts. Memorizing facts is easy, solving problems with real-world workable solutions isn't.

Snowballs wrote

I've seen those units over at Gore's maintenance building before. They used to use them.

Until they could no longer afford the diesel to run them.