Gore Early Season Plan 15-16

In the past, Gore has always opened with the gondola serving Sunway to Quicksilver.  I was there opening day this past season with those terrain offerings.  When I was there, I saw that the AE2 was still a work in progress and not quite ready to run.

This coming season, 15-16, the AE2 will be able to run opening weekend as they won't be finishing installing it.  Does anyone think it makes sense to start with the AE2 next season instead of the gondola?  I think it does make sense for a couple reasons.

1.  With only one lift open, you are lapping it every run.  It is a pain in the neck to take skis and boards off every run to lap a gondola.  With a chair, it is so much more enjoyable to lap runs, and early season, the cold isn't as much of a factor.  Plus, one can always wear an extra layer if it is a colder day.

2.  The runs that the gondola gets you that the AE2 doesn't (Foxlair, Ruby Run, and Fairview) are quite possibly the lamest runs on the entire mountain (aside from Lower Cloud, Cedars, and Pipeline).  They are nothing more than superhighways to get the masses of humanity from the top of the gondola to the front side where the real runs are rather than runs that one actually skis for the enjoyment of it.  All 3 also require a large amount of snow to make skiable which could be better used by opening an extra route from the AE2.

So, do people agree with my reasoning?  Also, what does everyone think they'll actually do?

Not only does that make sense, it doesn't require the expenditure of funds that don't exist.

I think they should stay closed until they can cover all the trails with snow and run all the lifts.

Makes sense to me!  Many days this year, those really cold days, it seemed like Showcase had the best snow on the mountain.  

Sounds reasonable for thE very early season

im going to guess the reason they do the gondi instead of a chair is 100% marketing. for the average joe a gondi sounds much more appealing than a chair, they can advertise more vertical with the gondi with slightly more snow to put down. as a secondary the gondi is going to give a reprieve for the chance of rain on the early season days.

also. with the gondi running early season they dont have to run the chair anytime soon. if they start with the chair they will still need the gondi after a couple weeks regardless when they start opening the summit.

i 100% agree on the opening trails being incredibly...bland, but gore is, and probably always will be a family mountain and thats just the way it is. id love to see them go back to opening topridge before headwaters but they wont. same thing with hawkeye being a priority over headwaters, less snow to put down initially and will seperate the advanced skiers from the "family" run. but again, they wont. headwaters is more family oriented.

I don't see it changing next year. Marketing the new lift? Doubt it.

Correct, for many people, "gondola" sounds more appealing than "high speed quad".  However, have this same person go lap a runs for half a day off each lift and I'm sure in most cases, they'll tell you at the end that lapping the HSQ was more enjoyable.

I wasn't saying to cater to experts more earlier in the season, I was saying to not waste resources opening two lame icy runs early in the season and instead open an extra route down from the AE2.  If it were up to me, my lift/trail opening plan would be as follows using this year's dates as an example.  Yes, I posted it in the Next upgrades thread, but it's more on topic here.

All trail openings could be subjected to change due to weather, but everything possible would be done to keep the lifts on this schedule.  For example, one week could be really bad and you might only open one trail on a section, but the next week could be really good and you could open another section and catch up on the previous one.

11/16:
Lift:  Adirondack Express
Trails:  Sunway top to bottom, Quicksilver, and Showcase

11/22:
Lift:  Adirondack Express
New Trail Openings:  Twister, Sleighride, and Wild Air.  Most of the front side.

11/28:
New Lift Openings:  Gondola, Sunway, Topridge, Surface Lifts
Trails:  All from previous weeks plus beginner areas, Foxlair, Ruby Run, Topridge, Pine Knot, Tannery.

12/6:
New Lift Openings:  Straightbrook
New Trail Openings:  Hawkeye, Cloud, Headwaters, Uncas, Chatiemac

12/13:  
New Lift Openings:  North Side, High Peaks
New Trail Openings:  Sleeping Bear, Pete Gay, Wood In, Wood Out, Lies, Hullabaloo, Santanoni, Wood Lots (this sounds like a lot, but these trails are mostly short and narrow and don't require much snow to cover).

12/20:
New Lift Openings:  Burnt Ridge Quad
New Trail Openings:  Cedars, Echo, Hedges, Sagamore, Tahawus
Other stuff:  Catch up on other sections if weather doesn't allow opening the trails mentioned above

12/26:
New Lift Openings:  Village Chair, Hudson Chair, Tubing Tow
New Trail Openings:  Pipeline, Abenaki, Eagle's Nest, Peaceful Valley, Village Slope, Tubing
Other stuff:  Continue to catch up on other sections if they can't be opened with the amount of trails mentioned above

After 12/26:
Open all the rest of the trails in all sections of the mountain and resurface the ones that need it.  Try to be 100% open by MLK Weekend.

Take that entire schedule and stretch it out like this and assume:

Blowing on two trails at a time
for 2 to 3 days each including transition time
30% of the days you can't blow at all
2 or 3 major rain event before MLK
Holiday off for snowmakers

You have so many complaints and unfulfilled expectations when it come to Gore yet you seem obsessed with the place. I don't get it.

I've seen Hunter blow on what was probably about 10 trails at a time.  I've seen Mountain Creek blow on at least 8 trails at a time.

Windham had two full ways down from the top for opening day this past season as well as two ways down that weren't from the top.

Hunter had two full ways down from the top as well as a Mossy Brook and some of Hunter One.  When they got to 12/13, they had basically the entire mountain open, except Annapurna, Westway, K27, Upper Crossover, and the E-Lift trails.  By 12/26, I think E-Lift was closed, but all other lifts were open and almost all trails off those lifts.  

Windham did similarly well during the same time.  Normally speaking, Windham doesn't always get East Peak open, but that did happen this past season.

Killington got all lifts open by 12/26 except Skyeship Stage 1.  That would be extremely bad for the ski experience to loose a base area like that on a holiday weekend, but they did get it open by 12/31.  In 12-13, they were able to open it on 12/28 and in 13-14, it opened right on 12/26.  It isn't a guarantee that Killington gets Skyeship 1 open by Christmas, but it does happen pretty frequently.

Stratton opened the Sun Bowl right on 12/26 this past season.  Normally, they always get it open before Christmas.

Mount Snow had all lifts open by 12/26 this past season.  I believe they got them open quite a bit earlier though.

Okemo had all their lifts open by some absurdly early date this year and frequently has more open than almost anyone early season.  I think they opened the last lift on 12/6, a full 3 weeks earlier than what I say should be standard.

Stowe got all lifts open except the Toll House Double by 12/26, while they officially didn't make the cut, the Toll House Lift serves only 2 not very interesting trails.

If all these mountains can open pretty much all their lifts by 12/26, why is Gore never able to do these things.  Burnt Ridge and the Ski Bowl being closed means you lose a lot of really good terrain.  Also, for getting holidays off for snowmakers, that is not a necessity, I was at MC for Christmas in 2013 and Jiminy Peak in 2014.  MC was making snow like crazy.  I didn't run in with any snowmakers, but I did thank some of the lifties for coming out on Christmas so the mountain could be open.  When I was at Jiminy, it was too warm to make snow.

I agree with Harv.  How many days a year do you ski at Gore sno?  

Most of us regulars are pretty happy with the place!

snoloco wrote

I've seen Hunter blow on what was probably about 10 trails at a time.  I've seen Mountain Creek blow on at least 8 trails at a time.

Windham had two full ways down from the top for opening day this past season as well as two ways down that weren't from the top.

Hunter had two full ways down from the top as well as a Mossy Brook and some of Hunter One.  When they got to 12/13, they had basically the entire mountain open, except Annapurna, Westway, K27, Upper Crossover, and the E-Lift trails.  By 12/26, I think E-Lift was closed, but all other lifts were open and almost all trails off those lifts.  

Windham did similarly well during the same time.  Normally speaking, Windham doesn't always get East Peak open, but that did happen this past season.

Killington got all lifts open by 12/26 except Skyeship Stage 1.  That would be extremely bad for the ski experience to loose a base area like that on a holiday weekend, but they did get it open by 12/31.  In 12-13, they were able to open it on 12/28 and in 13-14, it opened right on 12/26.  It isn't a guarantee that Killington gets Skyeship 1 open by Christmas, but it does happen pretty frequently.

Stratton opened the Sun Bowl right on 12/26 this past season.  Normally, they always get it open before Christmas.

Mount Snow had all lifts open by 12/26 this past season.  I believe they got them open quite a bit earlier though.

Okemo had all their lifts open by some absurdly early date this year and frequently has more open than almost anyone early season.  I think they opened the last lift on 12/6, a full 3 weeks earlier than what I say should be standard.

Stowe got all lifts open except the Toll House Double by 12/26, while they officially didn't make the cut, the Toll House Lift serves only 2 not very interesting trails.

If all these mountains can open pretty much all their lifts by 12/26, why is Gore never able to do these things.  Burnt Ridge and the Ski Bowl being closed means you lose a lot of really good terrain.  Also, for getting holidays off for snowmakers, that is not a necessity, I was at MC for Christmas in 2013 and Jiminy Peak in 2014.  MC was making snow like crazy.  I didn't run in with any snowmakers, but I did thank some of the lifties for coming out on Christmas so the mountain could be open.  When I was at Jiminy, it was too warm to make snow.

It is not hard to figure out. Gore does not have enough pumping capacity. A normal ski area would fix this problem to maximize the holiday season. Gore is under no such pressure.

PeeTex wrote

I think they should stay closed until they can cover all the trails with snow and run all the lifts.

x2

I think all you guys would like to see Gore open a lot of terrain early. What I find fascinating is that when Sno suggests it, the response is not strongly positive. The enthusiasm of youth versus the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

PeeTex wrote

I think all you guys would like to see Gore open a lot of terrain early. What I find fascinating is that when Sno suggests it, the response is not strongly positive. The enthusiasm of youth versus the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

We would absolutely love to see gore have everything running and open by Christmas. We understand that isn't going to happen most of the time and I'm okay with it. The reason sno gets shit is because he brings up the same topic in 12 different threads. He has the same arguments in all those threads, and by arguements they are more like demands. And when the people give him the same response, he goes and types his rants comparing gore to 12 other mountains that are totally different. I don't get why sno skis at gore. I really don't. You come from jersey. What's 1.5hrs more to go to a southern Vermont mountain that clearly has everything your little heart could desire? If you want to ski gore come during presidents week when it will be able to remotely satisfy you.

It's not pumping capacity, it air compression. Gore has solid pumping capacity. Compressors are expensive, but even more so running them is expensive.  The electricity to run Gore's current compressors is something like 25% of overhead.  Some day if you have a chance check out the compressors at Killington. It's incredible.

I got no problem with snoloco's schedule I just don't see it happening without a major change within current business model.  I've watched Gore's snowmaking for maybe 10-15 years and I don't think what he wants is coming in the near future.

With new Low E guns and other improvements Gore has doubled their capacity to blow snow in the last decade or so. When I started watching full speed used to be 11 acre feet at day. Basically you could get showcase open (1 trail) in 2 or three days or so.  Now Gore can do two at a time.

Does anyone really think ORDA is sitting there going "yea we COULD open Gore 100% by Christmas, but we just don't want to?"  Obviously that would bring more skiers and make numbers better.  Total snowmaking budget isn't fixed, it's (in part) DETERMINED by skier visits.

PeeTex wrote

the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

It’s a beautiful sunny day out and I was enthused to get started on my plan for it. I was going to do some yard work, get in a good bike ride, take the dog for a long walk and then do steaks and beer on the deck for dinner with my wife.  After reading this though I think I’ll just close the curtains and go back to bed. What's the point? I give up.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

PeeTex wrote

the beaten down unimaginative hopelessness of old age.

It’s a beautiful sunny day out and I was enthused to get started on my plan for it. I was going to do some yard work, get in a good bike ride, take the dog for a long walk and then do steaks and beer on the deck for dinner with my wife.  After reading this though I think I’ll just close the curtains and go back to bed. What's the point? I give up.

That sounds like a good plan. I like to start my day off slow and then taper off from there...

Improving air capacity is nothing a million dollars won't solve.  Killington and Okemo both lease portable air compressors for the months they're expanding open terrain.

So then what is your theory on why improvements aren't happening fast enough for you?

(It's a serious question, I am far from an expert on this stuff.)