Gore Mountain Adirondack Express Replacement.

Other trades will happen. It seems to me the State generally gets more land than it yields in these trades thus growing the amount of land under conservation. That's a good thing.

I didn't vote for the issue as at that time I was unsure what all was behind the scenes. Generally, I don't trust them. That said, it appears to have been above the board as there's no rotten apples being exposed here.....yet. Time will tell.

More nefarious deals and actions have been done by the APA itself than I've seen in these land trades so far.

The APA and the DEC are not immune to political influence and dirty dealings.  Some real rogue conservationists are against whatever they do it seems.  Being government agencies they are not perfect.  I think generally I agree with their positions.  At least they have scientists working for them trying to advise them one way or another.  Politics might trumps that, but I'd like to think at least sometimes the right thing happens.

And back on topic.  As far as a lift for Gore... I don't care what they put in as long as I don't have to pay for it.

One thing I've yet to see in any argument is the cost to operate.  Keep in mind a higher speed lift will consume more power and cost more over it's shorter life.

And why is there even any discussion?  Is this something we can vote on?  If not, just sit back and be happy with whatever you get.

And addressing the ski bowl thing.  Seems to me there is never any snow there.  It's open like 1/3 of the ski season.  Good idea.  Bad location IMO.

Gore itself is just not an ideal location for snow.  Too bad it wasn't smack dab on the western edge of the park.  That place would be SICK!

I get small towns in NY, Rochester, Utica, Syracuse, Watertown, all dying a death by 1000 cuts. I don't think the state should subsidize life in the Park, I actually would like to see a lot of places revert back. I do think land under DEC control should increase but I worry about NYS's ability to pay for it all. But back to the lift.

According to the financial statements, Gore makes money for ORDA. But they don't say how much of ORDAs debt load Gore is responsible for. In reality, the lift is needed as the old one was on it's last legs and they don't need another MLK disaster. I only asked the question to spark a debate, which I did. Need something to pass the time until mud season is over, the consulting work is a little slow right now, the book my best friend gave me to read is a real shitter, can't wait to get done with it so I can get on to the latest Doris Kearns-Goodwin book, any stimulating conversation is good right now.

You mentioned Mountain Biking, much of the Adirondacks is really not suited for the damage that mountain biking can do. The soil is very shallow and erodes easily. Foot traffic is bad enough. Even old work roads like that headed into camp Santanoni - which is a favorite - gets pretty chewed up. Snow mobiles work because the ground is frozen and they mostly run above the vegetation. Bikes would tear hell out of these trails in the spring and summer. This is one of the big reasons I switched back to the road for the bike and the boots for the woods.

MikeK wrote

And back on topic.  As far as a lift for Gore... I don't care what they put in as long as I don't have to pay for it.

. . . .

And why is there even any discussion?  Is this something we can vote on?  If not, just sit back and be happy with whatever you get.

And addressing the ski bowl thing.  Seems to me there is never any snow there.  It's open like 1/3 of the ski season.  Good idea.  Bad location IMO.

We don't get to vote on it. It's a done deal, they didn't ask for any input or suggestions from the great unwashed, and they're in the process of replacing the lift right now. And don't kid yourself -- we the taxpayers ARE paying for it.

The only reason the Ski Bowl was "improved" was the thought that it would be tied somehow to the planned Front Street development. Most people at the time thought it was not a wise expenditure. You don't need 20/20 hindsight to see that they were right.  

I think Harv needs to break this discussion off into ADK development thread

mike being new to this forum go and search Tupper and ARC to see the crap show that the Greens inflicted upon Tupper.  Sadly a few rich down state lawyers formed a lobbying group and law suited Tupper to death.  The developer also had a crappy business plan to be balanced.

Mt biking is starting to make a impact in tourism especially in Wilmington. Our own forum contributor ScottyJack is a leader in that effort.  I live in the Acres in a Jay and there is some excellent riding in our trail system as well but you need to be a resident and member on the HOA to use them as they are on private land.

I disagree with the comment that tax payers are paying for that new lift.  Gore and WF both make money.

I agree about the Adirondack soils and bikes.  I can't believe the amount I've witnessed on mountain trails in the past 10-15 years.  Most hiking trails in the park are poorly designed though, so the impacts can be minimized with proper drainage.

More likely what happens is they erode to bedrock and the trail turns to a natural runoff (because it usually is going directly up a fall line) and the rock becomes slippery, which forces hikers onto side paths, and the erosion becomes worse.  Really just old trails, lots of drainage issues, and no thought designing them.

Western NY erodes very much more than the Adirondacks (base is shale vs granite/anorthosite) but there has been some good success building trails there that are viable.  IMO they are wearing faster than shared use biking/hiking trails of the past but that could be from:

A) More bike traffic than in the past - bikes are forced onto a few selected trails than being spread over many miles.

B) The soil compaction is less due to no foot traffic.  My theory is bike trails that people walk on as well are more sustainable because boot traffic helps compact and harden the soil.  My basis for this is dirt roads.  If we grated a dirt road and just let bikes ride it, it would become a rutted mess of tiny snake trails.  It we rolled over it will a steam roller first the impact would be much less because the soil would be compacted.  My thought is boot traffic helps compact what bike tires loosen (as long as drainage isn't an issue and mud pits aren't created).

And the whole bike thing in the park is pretty bogus.  They've been banned from Wilderness areas but not Wild Forests.  They've been treated like motorized vehicles.  And it isn't because the trails are any better suited in Wild Forests (except dirt truck roads).  The thing is bike trails need maintenance, just like roads.  They need to be grated and compacted, bridges built, drainage added and maintained and most of all properly fit into the landscape to avoid erosion... not a good fit for Wilderness but things that could be integrated into Wild Forests.  Trails that were cut for snowmobiles and skis are not always good for bikes... rarely in fact.

Anyway I think part of the issue too is that hikers don't like sharing trails with bikes.  Too many getting blown off the trail and not enough bikers that yield to foot passengers (which is how it should be).

I too favor my hiking boots and canoe these days.  The bikers need lots of trail work and support before they'll get back into the woods.

Coach Z wrote

I disagree with the comment that tax payers are paying for that new lift.  Gore and WF both make money.

They make money if you don't count the debt taken on for capital expansion. ORDA does not break it out that way - read their financial statement. They munge it all together, what we know is NYS kicked in a bunch of cash to support ORDA - about $4.5M just to make it break even last year. It is doubtful Gore would be able to install a new lift if the state did not back it up with the credit. A $6M investment in an operation with Revenues of only $8.5M is a little hard to imagine. Still, I am not complaining - just stating the facts.

You are new here but the basic assumption is that Gore and WF make money.  All the other venues of Orda Lose lots of money.  It's hard to prove because Orda seems to make their financial statements purposely obtuse.  We have rehashed this discussion about once a year when the statements are released.

I think this is all related to the Adk Express replacement.

The question originally (from PeeTex or Sponge?) was ...is  a new lift the best was to spend $6M to promote growth in the SoAdK?

For me I never actually said it was the best way to create jobs, just that it was creating measurable activity.

I guess I am blinded by my love for Gore. I think ultimately investments in NC will grow.

Whew, this thread is all over the place.  I'm just going to comment on two items:

PeeTex wrote

You mentioned Mountain Biking, much of the Adirondacks is really not suited for the damage that mountain biking can do. The soil is very shallow and erodes easily. Foot traffic is bad enough. Even old work roads like that headed into camp Santanoni - which is a favorite - gets pretty chewed up. Snow mobiles work because the ground is frozen and they mostly run above the vegetation. Bikes would tear hell out of these trails in the spring and summer. This is one of the big reasons I switched back to the road for the bike and the boots for the woods.

Mountain bikes are no more damaging to trails than hikers, maybe less.  There has been some research to prove this, but I'm too lazy to dig it up.  
I'm a pretty avid mountain biker, but I think it's perfectly appropriate to exclude mountain bikes from Wilderness areas.  I don't lust for the opportunity to bike up Algonquin. BETA is an outstanding model for how to do it right: purpose-built trails in locations where the terrain is appropriate.  I can't wait to get up to Wilmington again.

MikeK wrote

And addressing the ski bowl thing.  Seems to me there is never any snow there.  It's open like 1/3 of the ski season.  Good idea.  Bad location IMO.

The only problem with the ski bowl is that Gore's snowmaking capacity needs to catch up to their acreage.  Eventually it will (steps are already being taken), and then I think you'll see the Bowl open for more of the season.

PeeTex wrote

Coach Z wrote

I disagree with the comment that tax payers are paying for that new lift.  Gore and WF both make money.

They make money if you don't count the debt taken on for capital expansion. ORDA does not break it out that way - read their financial statement. They munge it all together, what we know is NYS kicked in a bunch of cash to support ORDA - about $4.5M just to make it break even last year. It is doubtful Gore would be able to install a new lift if the state did not back it up with the credit. A $6M investment in an operation with Revenues of only $8.5M is a little hard to imagine. Still, I am not complaining - just stating the facts.

Gore is not a stand alone business. It is part of ORDA which is part of NYS's efforts to provide jobs, tax revenue and tourism to areas of NYS were jobs are lacking. NYS claims that they get more out of ORDA thru tax revenue and jobs than it costs to finance the venues.

Gore competes with S VT and the suggestion by others that a 17 minute fixed grip quad should replace the HS triple (vs a HSQ) is just a bad idea. The money that might be saved by installing a FGQ would certainly be lost over time by the number of people that might not return to Gore.

Yea. A fixed grip there would suck.

Snowballs wrote

Yea. A fixed grip there would suck.

Understatement of the thread

M Pratt would have to go find those wool ponchos to hand out for the ride up.

x10003q wrote

 
Gore competes with S VT and the suggestion by others that a 17 minute fixed grip quad should replace the HS triple (vs a HSQ) is just a bad idea. The money that might be saved by installing a FGQ would certainly be lost over time by the number of people that might not return to Gore.

Do you really think so?? I've heard this mentioned before, but I never, EVER consider lift systems whenever I plan a skiing trip. The only thing that matters to me is terrain and snow, lifts never even enter my mind. Guess I'm just different than most....to me lift rides are a real hoot.

Could that be because most areas have some decent lifts ? Suppose the terrain and snow equated, and all the lifts at one area were slow doubles with looooong lines and another nearby area had fast, high capacity lifts with short lines ?

OR suppose one had a single bartender, huge beer lines and one had many bartenders with no beer lines !

campgottagopee wrote

x10003q wrote

 
Gore competes with S VT and the suggestion by others that a 17 minute fixed grip quad should replace the HS triple (vs a HSQ) is just a bad idea. The money that might be saved by installing a FGQ would certainly be lost over time by the number of people that might not return to Gore.

Do you really think so?? I've heard this mentioned before, but I never, EVER consider lift systems whenever I plan a skiing trip. The only thing that matters to me is terrain and snow, lifts never even enter my mind. Guess I'm just different than most....to me lift rides are a real hoot.

2 words... West Mountain.  

Snowballs wrote

Could that be because most areas have some decent lifts ? Suppose the terrain and snow equated, and all the lifts at one area were slow doubles with looooong lines and another nearby area had fast, high capacity lifts with short lines ?

 

That's prolly the case, I mean how slow/fast is too slow or too fast??? To me it doesn't really matter. Just get my ass to the top and let me ski down......repeat!

Snowballs wrote

 

OR suppose one had a single bartender, huge beer lines and one had many bartenders with no beer lines !

Bet the long line single bartender has big boobies!!! Sometimes it's worth the wait

Vod kanockers ?

campgottagopee wrote

Bet the long line single bartender has big boobies!!! Sometimes it's worth the wait

haha that's cuz your a gp skier and ANY lift system is pretty much an improvement!!!


aaaaahhhh,  the ole big boobies  = mad river glen analogy

gorgonzola wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Bet the long line single bartender has big boobies!!! Sometimes it's worth the wait

haha that's cuz your a gp skier and ANY lift system is pretty much an improvement!!!


aaaaahhhh,  the ole big boobies  = mad river glen analogy

True. Heck, I'd vote for putting the dang t-bars back in.....oh the bitchin that would go on then....we're so damn spoiled now_A_days

I just love the word boobies