Greek Peak: "federal" charge on season pass sales

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Wildass Guess: this is an ecommerce system with fields for federal and state tax that can't be (or weren't) customized to fit this application. I assume if there was a federal tax on passes we'd probably all know about it.

I don't have a clue about nys tax code but was wondering if maybe such fees were non taxable?

Harvey wrote

Wildass Guess: this is an ecommerce system with fields for federal and state tax that can't be (or weren't) customized to fit this application. I assume if there was a federal tax on passes we'd probably all know about it.

What's the application?

gorgonzola wrote

I don't have a clue about nys tax code but was wondering if maybe such fees were non taxable?

Gorg - that's possible. There is no NYS sales tax on season passes at this time. However, according to a post in another thread, GP put the 4% fee on everything including food/drinks at Trax (and presumably at the cafeteria and a-frame).

Reality is this is nothing but a price increase, just like the resort fees you pay at some hotels.

Look at it like this - say Greek increases their pass price next season (2016 - 2017 season) by 10% to $439. That doesn't seem bad right? A 10% increase in two years? But reality is if they raised prices 10% in 2016-2017, your end cost would be $439 + 4% = $456, which is really a 14.4% increase over the 2014-2015 rate, or about 7% a year.

They can raise the price as the need to, and as the market will bear. But it's sneaky to add the resort fee to disguise a price increase IMO.

Here's a little snip from Wikipedia regarding resort fees:

"Legality

In 2012, the Federal Trade Commission has warned 22 hotel operators that their online rate quote totals, which did not include resort fees, may violate FTC regulations relating to deceptive practices.[6]

Additionally, the Federal Trade Commission states the following regarding how hotels and third parties should disclose such fees:

Listing the “resort fee” near the quoted price or in the fine print — or referring to other fees that “may apply” — isn’t good enough."
 

Got an email from Wes:

"This was a mistake because of the way the software is set up. We have changed this to a fee. This “Resort Fee” is to cover additional cost of operation: min wage increases, health insurance, credit card fees, energy cost increases, shuttle bus, entertainment etc."

Harvey wrote

Got an email from Wes:

"This was a mistake because of the way the software is set up. We have changed this to a fee. This “Resort Fee” is to cover additional cost of operation: min wage increases, health insurance, credit card fees, energy cost increases, shuttle bus, entertainment etc."

Harvey - I'll say it again. It's misleading. When other businesses experience increases in operating costs, they increase their prices. They don't disguise it as a "fee" add on.

In fact resort fees at hotels do NOT cover increases in operating costs year over year. They typically are there to cover amenities like "free" internet, "free" breakfast, "free" etc etc.

Here's my prediction, you can see in a year if it holds true. Next year Greek will announce a 20% increase in pass prices - claiming that they haven't increased their pricing in two years. And BAM, you're at $500 a pass (for the math challenged, $399 * 1.2 * 1.04 = $498).

Edit to add - our family is getting Song/Lab passes next year. My wife and I have had Greek season passes for 15 years (the kids 10). We were ready to make the change anyway, just to get a little variety. Disguising the price increase as a "fee" was enough silliness to make up our minds.  With the money we expect to save save we can ski GP a few times as well. Maybe we'll hate it and be back at Greek in year.

Don't forget there were signs out advertising Song, Lab and Togg passholders for daily $25 lift tickets.

billyymc wrote

Harvey wrote

Got an email from Wes:

"This was a mistake because of the way the software is set up. We have changed this to a fee. This “Resort Fee” is to cover additional cost of operation: min wage increases, health insurance, credit card fees, energy cost increases, shuttle bus, entertainment etc."

WES - I'll say it again. It's misleading. When other businesses experience increases in operating costs, they increase their prices. They don't disguise it as a "fee" add on.

In fact resort fees at hotels do NOT cover increases in operating costs year over year. They typically are there to cover amenities like "free" internet, "free" breakfast, "free" etc etc.

Here's my prediction, you can see in a year if it holds true. Next year Greek will announce a 20% increase in pass prices - claiming that they haven't increased their pricing in two years. And BAM, you're at $500 a pass (for the math challenged, $399 * 1.2 * 1.04 = $498).

Edit to add - our family is getting Song/Lab passes next year. My wife and I have had Greek season passes for 15 years (the kids 10). We were ready to make the change anyway, just to get a little variety. Disguising the price increase as a "fee" was enough silliness to make up our minds.  With the money we expect to save save we can ski GP a few times as well. Maybe we'll hate it and be back at Greek in year.

Fixed it for you.  I just copied and pasted the response, was not involved in the decision.

Also just got an email for KT basically saying the same thing Wes said above.

Harvey wrote

Got an email from Wes:
"This was a mistake because of the way the software is set up. We have changed this to a fee. This “Resort Fee” is to cover additional cost of operation: min wage increases, health insurance, credit card fees, energy cost increases, shuttle bus, entertainment etc."

Here's what it looks like now:

Sale Total:        $ 399.00
Discount(s):        $ 0.00
Subtotal:                $ 399.00
Taxes and/or Fees $ 15.96
Tax/Fees:
Total:                $ 414.96

If GP is going to charge a "Resort Fee" on top of season pass sales, the season pass page should explicitly state something like "All pass sales are subject to a 4% Resort Fee."  Instead, the season pass page states "*ALL PRICES DO NOT INCLUDE TIPS, TAXES, AND FEES." And the sale transaction should reflect "Resort Fee" (or at a minimum "Fees"), but not "Taxes and/or Fees."   You can call me a stickler for detail, but I find it misleading.  

Also, I happen to agree with Billy that "resort fees" are meant to cover free amenities, not operating cost increases.  What are they going to do next year, increase the resort fee to 8% if their operating costs go up again?

Last, I believe businesses need to be responsive to inquiries from their customers and potential customers.  You (Harv) got your email from Wes at least an hour ago (based on your post time).  I have yet to hear from Greek Peak despite 2 separate inquiries that are now 48 hours old.  Apparently they think the explanation they passed along to you is good enough.  

Marketing 101.
Keep the advertised price below the barrier. At $399, it's under $400 and it "feels" better. Once you've made the decision to buy, adding $15 to the price is easy to mentally justify.

Is it a slimy marketing practice, yes. It's like selling a season pass but only opening half the mountain mid week to save costs.

PeeTex wrote

Marketing 101.
Keep the advertised price below the barrier. At $399, it's under $400 and it "feels" better. Once you've made the decision to buy, adding $15 to the price is easy to mentally justify.

Is it a slimy marketing practice, yes. It's like selling a season pass but only opening half the mountain mid week to save costs.

Which is what they do.  

PeeTex wrote

Marketing 101.
Keep the advertised price below the barrier. At $399, it's under $400 and it "feels" better. Once you've made the decision to buy, adding $15 to the price is easy to mentally justify.
Is it a slimy marketing practice, yes. It's like selling a season pass but only opening half the mountain mid week to save costs.

I think the strategy of holding pass prices at last year's level and implementing a 4% Resort Fee is actually a fine, defensible idea.  But Marketing 101 would have management out in front of that stating something like "We're holding pass prices at last year's level, but we're going to be implementing a 4% Resort Fee on season passes and lift tickets to cover amenities like the free shuttles and entertainment in the lodge."  And you disclose the fee on the Tickets & Passes page of the website.  Communication, that's Marketing 101.

And now I see Harv's gotten 2 emails from Greek Peak on this.  I'm still at zero.  Shows you who rates, and it's not necessarily the customer.

I did receive an email from Greek Peak a few minutes ago:

Thank you for bringing this to our attention. While we do add a Resort Fee to all our transactions we were unaware the software system was labeling the as a Federal tax, rather than the fee that it is.
This was corrected immediately when it was brought to our attention and we changed it on 3/17/15.
Thank you,

I appreciate the response from GP.  And for the record, I hope Greek Peak has a successful rest of this winter and next.  Edited my 1:18pm post above ^^ to tone it down.  I think GP merely dropped the ball on this rather than intentionally hiding or disguising the fee.

Good on them for fixing it.

It's still VERY unusual for a fee to be applied to cover increased operating expenses.

Check out their latest press release announcing the wedding tent they installed a year ago. Also, take note of the mention of "outdoor accommodations, " which means they are finally installing the Trax deck they announced two years ago.  It doesn't mention if the 4% resort fee will apply to weddings.



12 MAY 15 (Cortland, NY) - Greek Peak Mountain Resort has expanded options for special events and weddings with The Tent. A beautiful outdoor tent adjacent to the award winning Hope Lake Lodge at Greek Peak Mountain Resort. The Tent is accompanied with a solid floor, side structures with windows, sweeping drapery and dramatic lighting. The Tent is a three seasons, 4,000 sq ft venue, offering guests panoramic mountain views while accommodating up to 250 guests.  

In addition to the The Tent, Hope Lake Lodge & Conference Center accommodates small intimate events and meetings to large corporate conferences and expos with over 19,000 sq ft of event space throughout the resort.

Greek Peak Mountain Resort caters to a variety of corporate and special events. The resort is focusing sales efforts on weddings and summer events during the upcoming months. Recently added to the sales team is Samantha Rogers as Wedding Consultant & Sales Manager. Samantha brings over five years’ experience of event sales and wedding planning. Samantha has been praised for her attention to detail, experience, and pleasant demeanor. (srogers@greekpeakmtnresort.com / 888.974.1802)

For more information: http://greekpeakweddings.com/venues/the-tent/

The owners of Greek Peak Mountain Resort, John Meier and Marc Stemerman are dedicated to the growth and expansion of the resort. They are currently in the planning stages for the next level expansion on property which will cater to the demand for additional outdoor accommodations. Stay tuned for more information in the upcoming months.

Rj1972 wrote

  Also, take note of the mention of "outdoor accommodations, " which means they are finally installing the Trax deck they announced two years ago.  


 

FKNA

I wonder if they'll have it finished by Peakfest?? I'd be surprised, that thing is going to be HUGE, and I'd guess that it will take some time to complete. That said, I'm no builder so I really have no idea. One thing is it will be totally kick-ass.....these guys don;t mess around when it comes to stuff like that. Just look how nice Trax is.

Rj1972 wrote

The Tent is a three seasons, 4,000 sq ft venue, offering guests panoramic mountain views while accommodating up to 250 guests.

Panoramic mountain views? Wow. Must be locating the tent in Colorado.

I know they were going to get some additional quotes on the deck construction back in March, so don't know what the timeframe might be. There was also mention of lift served mountain biking this summer, but would have thought that they would be advertising that by now if it was going to be a reality.

Camp, I agree that the deck will likely be first class, given the quality of construction projects we've seen thus far from the duo. The only exception is the wedding tent, which I feel is an eyesore next to the beautiful Lodge. I wish they wouldn't have gone on the cheap and actually built it using brick and mortar to match the exterior of the Lodge. They certainly could use a large 4-season conference space on that side of the road.

I would hardly call this an eyesore

That said, the exterior of the structure def does not match the rustic theme that the rest of the lodge has, so yea it does stick out. Maybe they should paint it camo