Hiking fee?

Nobody has said anything like what you've mentioned.

I truly think something like this will begin to happen.

billyymc wrote

I think you'd have unintended consequences...
Hiking fees would simply reduce the people who actually get off their ass and take a walk.

The other unintended consequence is that political support for "forever wild" would erode if fewer and fewer people hiked, or even thought about hiking. But at least it satisfies the libertarian fantasy of everyone paying for everything individually.

Hiking isn't the same as hunting or fishing.  Hunting and fishing require a lot more planning and equipment and knowledge than hiking, which is really only walking outside. Licenses don't do much to increase the cost or effort it takes to go hunting. A hiking license would just discourage the casual hiker, but that still has consequences.

mm

 
 
 

Milo Maltbie wrote

  Licenses don't do much to increase the cost or effort it takes to go hunting.  

Really? When is the last time you've purchased a hunting or fishing license?

https://www.newyorkupstate.com/outdoors/2019/07/many-adirondack-mountain-peak-trails-hurting-who-should-pay-to-fix-them.html

Milo Maltbie wrote

billyymc wrote

I think you'd have unintended consequences...
Hiking fees would simply reduce the people who actually get off their ass and take a walk.

 
Hiking isn't the same as hunting or fishing.  Hunting and fishing require a lot more planning and equipment and knowledge than hiking, which is really only walking outside.  

mm

i keep a fishing rod in my trunk..takes about 30 seconds for me to get ready..

That's ridiculous and I already explained it.

In truth (sarcasm aside) hiking, backpacking, mountain biking etc are not different from hunting or fishing. If the state is gonna require a permit for one then there’s moral or legal reason not to do the same with the other. Just look at the downstate parks or the gunks if you think people won’t pay. They will. It’s not even that onerous- 6-8 bucks to park-  less if you buy an empire pass.

But I was serious about doubling tolls for out -of- staters. We should stick to those freeloading F’s

MC2 5678F589 wrote

The best idea I saw was putting voluntary parking meters at trailheads where people toss loose change in to help pay for trail construction & maintenance.

The WMNF has payment kiosks at its trailheads or you can buy a yearly parking permit. I think the trailhead parking fees are around $3 and the yearly permit is $20-25 or so? That still isn't enough to cover NH's SAR costs. The state also offers a Hike Safe option that allows people to contribute and not be charged if they need a rescue (assuming no negligence).

Some have suggested an equivalence between hiking and hunting. But I think there is a bit of a difference there as over hunting can decimate a population. The worst over hiking can do is contribute to some localized erosion, you generally don't run the risk of eliminating a species by over hiking. So it makes sense to me that hunting is a bit more regulated (and you need to pay for personnel to enforce those regulations).

I don't know the right answer here. There are valid arguments on both sides of the issue. You want to encourage people to get outdoors. Will a fee discourage people? The WMNF parking permit has not discouraged hikers, that is for sure. So who pays? It can either be a usage fee or included in the state budget. I am okay with it being a usage fee. If the fees are low, it will not discourage people from going. The parking fee seems to be a solid option... especially when it is very cheap annually.

Could you tell me the last population that was decimated due to over hunting?

How about a recreation tax on gear, .25% +/-. A portion goes to the state the rest into a pool that is available to local government through grant funding. What gear? Bikes to guns, no clothing/footwear. Has the potential to lower hunting and fishing  fees also.

riverc0il wrote

Some have suggested an equivalence between hiking and hunting. But I think there is a bit of a difference there as over hunting can decimate a population. The worst over hiking can do is contribute to some localized erosion, you generally don't run the risk of eliminating a species by over hiking. So it makes sense to me that hunting is a bit more regulated (and you need to pay for personnel to enforce those regulations).

Right. I agree with this. Hunting & Fishing have population management concerns that have to be addressed. People get dinged every year for going over limits (and rightly so, I believe).

As mm mentioned, hiking is just walking in the woods on public land. Most times in the year (weekdays, shoulder seasons, winter), the trails are pretty empty.

I have said it before, but the solution is easy: if someone needs to be rescued, and the rescue costs over $x, the person has to pay for the rescue costs. If they want to, they can take out insurance to cover those rescue costs. I think Europe has a similar program that works pretty well, but I'm not familiar with it. Trail maintenance costs can be paid with tax dollars and supplemented by voluntary donations at trailheads.

Everyone is overthinking this.

campgottagopee wrote

.
I truly think something like this will begin to happen.

It probably will, but I'm surprised to see the small government/bureaucracy hating conservatives on the site arguing *for* it, and the good government supporting/single payer healthcare advocating/wealth tax increasing liberals arguing *against* it.

One of the many ways where the urban/suburban/rural divide is skewing policy preferences in weird directions, and reinforcing the "get off my lawn" sensibilities of some of the mountain living folks. See: Z's constant complaining about tourists in the tourist town he moved to.

You guys can't actually think the costs are prohibitive here, right? That suggests an extreme ignorance about the State budget.

campgottagopee wrote

When is the last time you've purchased a hunting or fishing license?

Last April, but to be fair I'd be pissed if they added a salt water license.

mm

https://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/26368.html
Sporting License Sales Summary
Historical License Sales By Year
The information below shows historical sporting license holders by license year for each license category. Prior to 2014, license years ran from October 1 through September 30. From 2014 to the present, the license year is September 1 through August 31.

Fishing License Holders
License Year Resident Non-Resident Total Fishing
License Holders
2006-2007 838,064 153,020 991,084
2007-2008 846,169 153,020 999,189
2008-2009 881,097 154,272 1,035,369
2009-2010 795,440 146,019 941,59
2010-2011 766,071 141,957 908,028
2011-2012 791,674 149,174 940,848
2012-2013 746,824 165,009 911,833
2013-2014 731,285 147,477 878,762
2014-2015 648,075 162,040 810,115
2015-2016 618,735 132,705 751,440
2016-2017 770,282 155,667 925,949
2017-2018 750,770 178,402 929,172
Hunting License Holders
License Year Resident Non-Resident Total Hunting
License Holders
2006-2007 521,805 40,445 562,250
2007-2008 521,960 40,459 562,419
2008-2009 554,918 40,986 595,904
2009-2010 524,276 38,251 562,527
2010-2011 519,472 36,480 555,952
2011-2012 533,624 37,155 570,779
2012-2013 544,275 39,895 584,170
2013-2014 551,391 40,347 591,738
2014-2015 549,999 41,974 591,973
2015-2016 547,223 43,065 590,288
2016-2017 528,327 40,920 569,247
2017-2018 532,149 38,897 571,046
Trapping License Sales
License Year Resident Non-Resident Total Trapping
License Holders
2006-2007 12,875 269 13,144
2007-2008 12,732 241 12,973
2008-2009 13,395 426 13,641
2009-2010 11,193 187 11,380
2010-2011 11,824 200 12,024
2011-2012 12,539 206 12,745
2012-2013 13,739 90 13,829
2013-2014 15,567 82 15,649
2014-2015 16,510 65 16,575
2015-2016 15,221 62 15,283
2016-2017 15,161 68 15,229
2017-2018 14,987 73 15,060
Marine Registration Holders
License Year Resident Non-Resident Total Trapping
License Holders
2006-2007 n/a n/a
2007-2008 n/a n/a
2008-2009 n/a n/a
2009-2010 n/a n/a
2010-2011 150,554 13,757 164,311
2011-2012 461,051 34,099 495,150
2012-2013 282,967 30,472 313,439
2013-2014 346,613 33,683 380,296
2014-2015 271,364 31,839 303,203
2015-2016 312,715 31,374 344,089
2016-2017 331,797 32,702 364,499
2017-2018 382,039 37114 419,153
Gross License Sales by License Year
License Year Quantity Sold Gross Sales
2006-2007 1,866,543 $40,763,060
2007-2008 1,900,794 $41,223,002
2008-2009 2,071,957 $64,104,817
2009-2010 1,717,676 $49,749,695
2010-2011 1,735,424 $50,923,411
2011-2012 1,969,673 $52,520,481
2012-2013 2,041,202 $50,769,343
2013-2014 2,095,055 $49,084,245
2014-2015 2,530,487 $44,180,335
2015-2016 2,628,367 $45,234,593
2016-2017 2,571,238 $44,171,886
2017-2018 2,561,670 $41,964,395
2017-18 Sporting License Sales by Item
The following is a summary of all items sold through the DEC Automated Sporting Licensing System (DECALS) for the 2017-18 license year, which runs from September 1, 2017 through August 31, 2018

2017-18 License Year, Total Items Sold
ITEM CODE LICENSE NAME QUANTITY FEES
002 Resident Fishing Season Mil./Dis. 12,339 $26,670
003 Resident Fishing 1-Day 24,940 $124,730
005 Resident Fishing 476 $0
006 Resident Fishing Season 483,784 $12,094,590
012 Resident Bowhunting Privilege 156,682 $2,350,440
013 Resident Bowhunting Privilege Mil./Dis. 5,403 $0
014 Resident Muzzleloading Privilege 164,268 $2,464,200
015 Resident Muzzleloading Privilege Mil./Dis. 7,922 $0
019 Resident Jr Bowhunting 6,191 $24,764
023 Resident Turkey Permit 150,772 $1,507,820
026 Resident Trapping 10,624 $212,480
027 Resident Trapping Mil./Dis. 707 $200
028 Resident Jr Trapping 560 $2,800
029 Resident Habitat Stamp/Contribution 4,774 $25,200
038 Non-Resident Bowhunting 10,473 $308,652
040 Non-Resident Turkey Permit 8,047 $160,980
041 Non-Resident Fishing 1-Day 61,775 $617,760
043 Non-Resident Fishing Season 54,008 $2,700,400
046 Non-Resident Trapping 57 $15,675
047 Non-Resident Habitat Stamp/Contribution 1,160 $5,965
051 Lifetime License (Sportsman) 1,577 $599,260
052 Lifetime License (Sportsman) 494 $264,290
053 Lifetime License (Sportsman) 52 $39,780
055 Lifetime Fishing 550 $264,290
062 Lifetime Trapping 84 $33,180
063 Lifetime Bowhunting Privilege 727 $170,845
074 Lifetime License (Sportsman) 1,698 $110,355
075 Lifetime Fishing 322 $20,930
077 Lifetime License (Sportsman) 1,339 $1,023,905
090 Deer Management Permit - Instant 61,083 $0
092 Deer Management Permit - First Come/First Served 37,629 $0
097 Deer Management Permit - First Come/First Served 28,190 $281,900
101 Conservatonist 1,272 $15,264
102 Sportsman Ed Certificate 381 $381
103 Deer Management Permit - Instant 250,394 $2,504,450
105 LT Permanent Card Replacement 63 $18
107 Resident Bowhunting Privilege 523 $0
110 Resident Trapping 420 $0
111 Resident Fishing Season 927 $0
113 Non-Resident Fishing 7-Day 61,406 $1,719,396
114 Resident Fishing 7-day 9,802 $117,624
120 Resident Muzzleloading Privilege 639 $0
121 Jr Bowhunting (NA) 2 $0
123 Resident Jr Trapping 1 $0
155 Lifetime Fishing 20 $9,200
163 Lifetime Bowhunting Privilege 24 $5,640
164 Lifetime Muzzleloading Privilege 53 $12,455
166 Lifetime Bowhunting Privilege 127 $29,845
185 I Support Venison Donation 1,178 $3,794
187 Resident Trail Supporter Patch 979 $5,815
188 Non-Resident Trail Support Patch 181 $1,030
191 I Support the Conservation Fund 695 $4,629
192 Junior Hunting (NA) 3 $0
193 Resident Jr Hunting Big Game Tags 492 $0
194 Non Resident Jr Hunting Big Game Tags 22 $0
195 Resident Junior Hunting Big Game Tags (NA) 2 $0
196 Lifetime Muzzleloading Privilege 447 $105,045
199 Non-Resident Muzzleloading Privilege 8,879 $266,430
212 Resident Fishing Season - Senior 41,539 $207,695
214 Resident Muzzleloading Privilege - Senior 30,726 $0
215 Resident Trapping - Senior 1,496 $7,480
223 Recreational Marine Fishing Registration 408,791 $0
251 Resident Fishing Season Patriot 5,783 $0
253 Resident Trapping Patriot 156 $0
254 Non-Resident Jr Trapping 7 $35
300 Resident Jr Hunting 5,255 $26,275
301 Non-Resident Jr Hunting 263 $1,315
302 Resident Hunting 343,258 $7,551,808
303 Non-Resident Hunting 37,134 $3,713,500
304 Resident Hunting 23,657 $118,295
305 Resident Hunting Mil./Dis. 8,275 $41,375
306 Resident Hunting (NA) 698 $0
307 Resident Hunting Patriot 4,468 $0
308 Non-Resident Jr Hunting 713 $3,565
309 Resident Jr Hunting 10,249 $51,245
310 Resident Hunting License Mil./Dis. 1,555 $0
2,561,670 $41,964,395

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I have said it before, but the solution is easy: if someone needs to be rescued, and the rescue costs over $x, the person has to pay for the rescue costs......

Maybe the flip side would work better....person rescued pays the first $500??  Something enough to be annoying but not enough to discourage legit rescues from being called.

Brownski wrote

But I was serious about doubling tolls for out -of- staters. We should stick to those freeloading F’s

When you go out of state (or after when you check your cc statement for what that vacation actually cost) are you one of those "freeloading f's?"

I was just trying to provoke Harvey with the out of staters thing. The cannucks have to pay though.

I missed the part where I was supposed to be offended. I guess I am slipping?

Hey Johnny TLDR, what does all that tell me?

Harvey wrote

Hey Johnny TLDR, what does all that tell me?

you beat me to it!

I don't mind paying trail fees or donations for mtb, xc skiing or hiking. white clay in Delaware comes to mind, there are envelopes and drop boxes with set fees and receipt tags that you display in your car.
My preference would be a donation basis - i think most people feel good about contributing a few $ to something they enjoy, think AMC and other club sponsorships. Whenever I ride a new network i try to make a donation to the trail tenders organization, the easier the better, drop boxes volunteers, etc. We have a trail network close by that gets a lot of Philly destination riders and part of their volunteer effort is posting up a guy or girl in the parking lot on busy summer weekends hawking RideNox (Nockamixon) T's and pint glasses. Also a great way to educate and solicit volunteers for building, maintenance, rescue etc.
When I rode Wilmington a few years ago I told the guys at the shop that BETA should put some fundraising T's in there!
We've lost a lot of local riding and just recently some premier hiking (Glen Onoko) on PA State Gamelands that I would gladly buy a hunting or other rec license to get access back...

D.B. Cooper wrote

Maybe the flip side would work better....person rescued pays the first $500??  Something enough to be annoying but not enough to discourage legit rescues from being called.

If I broke my ankle and wrist in a fall, I'd splint them up and limp out in the dark before I paid $500 to have a Forest Ranger come in with a pair of crutches.

I don't think we should encourage that kind of thing. It creates more hazards than a simple 2 hour "rescue" that would be a lot easier for everyone involved.