Is Lake Placid / Orda's own off slope activities its own worst enemy?

Everyone was commenting this past weekend how uncrowded that WF was for President's weekend.  At the same time Lake Placid is hosting the World Championship Bobsledding which sucked up a portion of the bed base.  This weekend there is a very large race J2/J3 NY state's I think and the bobsledding again.  

I had a conversation the other day at LPPB where the topic was all the events taking up the bed base.   When we get into March CanAM hockey basically over runs LP.  As a ski tourist looking for a place to ski if you call up the hotels and they are all booked you'll assume that WF will be crowded and you may go else where to VT probably.

This happens all the time with LP.  I remember the Goodwill games back in maybe 2000.  The town was packed but no one was skiing at WF.

Thus my question does all the other attractions and events that LP and Orda put on hurt WF and its numbers?

My guess is no, all those activities and the bed base they are utilizing doesn't keep people off the mountain.  It's not like it's that hard to find a bed in Lake Placid, even on a holiday weekend.  We were at Placid/Whiteface last weekend, and we made our hotel reservations only a week in advance.  There were multiple hotel options available.

On the contrary, I think the activities probably lead to more skier visits then less.  All those Ski Mag ratings for off hill activities are worth something.  Listen, I love Whiteface as a ski resort, all things considered.  But the reality of all those things considered is that off hill activities and lack of lift lines probably would come before terrain as attractions for my family at Whiteface.  I could name plenty of other resorts that have better this, or better that, but as for the whole package, Whiteface is tops.  What really cements Whiteface as our destination choice is the town of Lake Placid, and all it offers.  At he risk of offending (no, I don't want to debate who has better skiing), if the Mad River Valley (I could ski Castlerock and Mad River Glen all day every day and be mucho happy) had the same type of non-skiing options that the Lake Placid area offers we would probably go to Vermont a lot more.  

I think a big part of the reason why Whiteface has been so empty this week is that many NJ and CT school districts "took this week away" as a vacation period after all the snow days they had last year. Because of all the snow last January & February, the schools went way over their normal number of snow days. In response, a lot of districts decided not to have this entire week as a vacation period.

I'm sure that has been a very big factor in the lack of skiers. I think that, coupled with this terrible winter left a lot of people asking, is it really worth it to take a ski vacation this year?

I'm sure to a limited extent the other events may have had a small part, but I don't think it was significant. The village has been relatively quiet all week ... it certainly doesn't seem like Lake Placid has been "overrun" with tourists.

The three primary reasons my family switched from Vermont to LP, in no particular order, are:  

1- The mountain itself, the terrain, the vertical, no condos, etc.;
2- Lake Placid, if a few people in our group want an off day, there is plenty to do in town, my wife often comments that she wishes we had more time (on a 2 night weekend) to spend in town.  We enjoy the atmosphere the skating, hockey, bobsledding create in town;
3- The housing, in VT we struggled to find adequate hotels, inns, houses, etc. for the four of us (2 adults and 2 girls).  On a ski weekend I don't want to drive to dinner, we are tired, a few glasses of wine, freezing surfaces, so our eating options have to be in walking distance of where we are staying...very hard to find in VT.  

In CT, our school system has not had President's week for a few years now and it appears they will continue for the years to come.  IMO, there is no question that the lack of snow in our area has impacted ticket sales.  Our once-a-year ski families friends are not going, they don't believe there is snow.  Lastly, I think that a lot of holiday week ski families want "ski in-ski out" lodging options, obviously not an option at WF.

thanks for your feedback - i agree that LP and the other attractions are a huge draw just sometimes maybe so much so that folks are not skiing
 
I don't think that CT is a prime market for WF.  CT mostly skis in Southern VT.  I really don't think you can  blame CT's school holidys for anything at WF.  It was a canandian holiday for "family day" last monday on our presidents day.  Canada is much more important a market for WF than CT is.

I agree most of Fairfield county CT skis southern VT (another reason why we like WF).  I grew up skiing there, my kids learned to ski there, my brother's family still skis there.  I do think that WF has a perception of being unreachable from CT, however, from our home LP is less than an hour further away than Manchester, VT, with less secondary roads.

yes WF is percieved by many people to be farther away but because you stay on the Interstate longer its not much of a time difference from VT where you spend much more time on 2 lane roads.  A friend of mine gets from Sussex Co NJ to my house in a little under 4 hours but he tends to go a little over the speed limit and then some

To be honest, I do 60 on the Taconic and 70 on the Northway (a lot of patrols).  It is about 75 miles further than southern VT for us.

Last Monday, my wife and her friend asked me why was WF so quiet and I told them the Canadians had gone home, they didn't care about our Presidents, I didn't realize it was a Canadian holiday too.  

ADKarver wrote

... Our once-a-year ski families friends are not going, they don't believe there is snow...

This is a powerful point. We see this in Ontario every winter: if there is no snow in Toronto, people assume that there is no snow "up north" where I live, in a region that, like LP, depends on tourism (I think, hello, don't you remember Grade 7 geography? As you go higher up or get closer to a pole, the weather changes!). Then, to make it worse, when it does snow, the media freaks out and warns everyone to stay home due to the "bad weather." One tourism group I was involved with even lobbied Toronto weather media to change their tune and be more "winter-positive," with little effect. This winter has been particularly bad this way, you wouldn't believe how many times I have answered the phone and heard the question. "do you have any snow up there?" I even resorted to blogging about it, surprise, surprise.

FWIW, when I drive home from VT last week (sorry NY), I took the scenic route across NY 11 to avoid Montreal traffic. As I drove west across upstate NY, it didn't surprise me to see how many cars with Ontario plates were heading to VT but it did surprise me how many cars with NY plates, and ski boxes on the roof, were heading that way. It's a small sample but if New Yorkers are leaving their home state in droves to ski in Vermont, that might be a big part of your problem.

Edit: On further thought, I guess there is no reason all those Ontario license plates couldn't have turned right and gone to Whiteface. As an outsider, I believe that WF still suffers from the "Iceface" reputation it obviously no longer deserves.  Jay Peak has actively cultivated a mystique over the years that draws people no matter what the conditions are like. And they simply kill it on the marketing front, thanks to people like Steve Wright.

I totally agree - Jay has the best marketing in the east bar none.  I think they have to becasue they are so far from anywhere except Montreal that Jay needs better marketing just to survive.

Ausable makes a fair point about LP during the CanAm hockey weeks. If you haven't experienced one of these times, it may be overwhelming. these hockey parents and their kids move in and take over the town. It can be very difficult to find a decent room. They bring a lot of $$ to LP several times a year. Some may ski, but I'd bet that WF may see some decline in skier visits during those times.

ausable skier wrote

I totally agree - Jay has the best marketing in the east bar none.  I think they have to becasue they are so far from anywhere except Montreal that Jay needs better marketing just to survive.

It isn't the marketing. It is having the highest annual snowfall (355inches) in the East. They could have zero marketing and skiers will still know about the snowfall.

Have you ever been to Jay when the trees are not decent?  its a very ordinary Mt then.  Their marketing folks have given it a cool and different vibe sno or no sno

Sick Bird Rider wrote

ADKarver wrote

... Our once-a-year ski families friends are not going, they don't believe there is snow...

As an outsider, I believe that WF still suffers from the "Iceface" reputation it obviously no longer deserves.  

I hate to say it, but I don't think the Iceface reputation is completely undeserved.  I finally made my way up to WF on NYE with a friend and had a great day skiing (it was freezing rain at the bottom, snowing hard up top - then warmed up in the afternoon).  Everything was soft and enjoyable (what was actually open...).  After that experience I finally convinced the wife to go with me on President's Day weekend (she was very nervous about the icy stigma) - and it was everything she had feared and more.  By midday the entire mountain was scraped clean - to the point where even the sharpest edges didn't do a thing.  For the first time in years we left 2 hours prior to closing time (I'm normally the ski nazi trying to get the last chair at 4 PM).  I understand the snow has been lacking this year and that was a busy weekend, but I've never experienced across-the-board conditions that poor at Gore.  I'll definitely go back, but it'll have to be after a dumping or on a warm spring day.

Absolutely not. We had no snow leading into presidents week.  that kept people from booking vacations.  Additionally there were plenty of rooms available this week. events do not take up all the rooms, as very few come up strictly for events, but rather for the whole package.  It was slow at every resort this week--I guarantee numbers are down everywhere. Most events are held at night anyway, on purpose, so as not to interfere with skiing.  

But again, thank you for your uninformed opinion as usual.

Brian wrote

Sick Bird Rider wrote

ADKarver wrote

... Our once-a-year ski families friends are not going, they don't believe there is snow...

As an outsider, I believe that WF still suffers from the "Iceface" reputation it obviously no longer deserves.  

I hate to say it, but I don't think the Iceface reputation is completely undeserved.  I finally made my way up to WF on NYE with a friend and had a great day skiing (it was freezing rain at the bottom, snowing hard up top - then warmed up in the afternoon).  Everything was soft and enjoyable (what was actually open...).  After that experience I finally convinced the wife to go with me on President's Day weekend (she was very nervous about the icy stigma) - and it was everything she had feared and more.  By midday the entire mountain was scraped clean - to the point where even the sharpest edges didn't do a thing.  For the first time in years we left 2 hours prior to closing time (I'm normally the ski nazi trying to get the last chair at 4 PM).  I understand the snow has been lacking this year and that was a busy weekend, but I've never experienced across-the-board conditions that poor at Gore.  I'll definitely go back, but it'll have to be after a dumping or on a warm spring day.

No resort in the east would have skied good on presidents weekend.  I heard bad reports from all over. Probably not smart on your part to "convince" your wife to go to such a challenging mountain on a busy weekend with less then optimal weather.  

Pants wrote

No resort in the east would have skied good on presidents weekend.  I heard bad reports from all over. Probably not smart on your part to "convince" your wife to go to such a challenging mountain on a busy weekend with less then optimal weather.

Actually, I thought the skiing at Whiteface was very good on President's weekend. Upper Northway skied great all weekend, Skyward was very good, the Wilmington Trail, from Lookout Below to the bottom was very good each day too.

Did things get skied off in the afternoon? Yes, they always do. Is Whiteface a little more susceptible to that than some other mountains? Maybe a little, but that is due to the fact that so many people ride the Gondola, and there really is only one "easy" way down from there. By 1:00 or 2:00 in the afternoon, that route is usually pretty well scraped off ... particularly on a holiday weekend.

I was riding the Gondola with a family from PA on Saturday afternoon at about 3:00 who had never been to WF before. We asked if they had been to the summit, and they said yes. When we talked about it further, we realized that they had been to the top of Lookout Mountain, not the summit. When we told them that, they said they'd go right over. We asked if they were going to ski the next day and they said yes, so we suggested that they wait for the morning to hit it.

A little common sense goes a long way! Any trail, at any mountain, at 3:00 is not going to be as good as it was at 9:00.

Actually I skied on Saturday of presidents weekend for a couple of hours before work and it was the best conditions of the year.  I forgot I snuck out for a bit.  I was at guest services when a woman came up to get a refund because she said it was boilerplate.  We laughed in her face as they gave her a refund.  Sometimes you wonder where these people were skiing?

Pants wrote

Actually I skied on Saturday of presidents weekend for a couple of hours before work and it was the best conditions of the year.  I forgot I snuck out for a bit.  I was at guest services when a woman came up to get a refund because she said it was boilerplate.  We laughed in her face as they gave her a refund.  Sometimes you wonder where these people were skiing?

After reading some comments on here about WF over the past few days I can honestly say I have less interest now than ever in returning.  Definitely some elitist attitudes toward less-than-expert skiers (which I guess I'm considered since I don't aspire to ski the Slides).  Looks like I'll be with the crowd driving to VT when I want some variety away from Gore.  

Brian wrote

I finally convinced the wife to go with me on President's Day weekend (she was very nervous about the icy stigma) - and it was everything she had feared and more.  By midday the entire mountain was scraped clean - to the point where even the sharpest edges didn't do a thing.  For the first time in years we left 2 hours prior to closing time (I'm normally the ski nazi trying to get the last chair at 4 PM).

Brian, I'm sorry to hear conditions weren't good for you & your wife over Pres day weekend.  I don't know which day(s) you skied, but I took my family up on the Monday (2/20) of that holiday weekend and found conditions to be quite good.  My trip report and photos from that day are here.  Believe me, if my wife and son (age 7) found the entire mountain to be scraped clean and rock hard, we wouldn't have had a very good time either.  We usually ski at Gore, but have gotten in 4 days this year up at WF, all of them very good to excellent.

Again, sorry to hear you had a bad day.  A lot has to do with chosing the right trails, and if you don't know the mountain well it comes down to luck.  If you try WF again, you could ask here for suggestions from  some of the WF regulars based upon your abilities/preferences.  Of course the "expert" advice can be a bit overwhelming sometimes...