Is Michael Moore crazy?

Has anyone watched his films?

If you are a conservative, which did you watch that you disagreed with?

He's definitely the fat schlub they stick on TV sometimes with a big mouth that sounds obnoxious things, but Roger & Me was a great movie. Bowling For Columbine made some excellent points, although I felt like he used people a bit bringing in the handicapped to Wal-Mart.

In his new movie, Trumpland, he points out that middle America was very poor, pissed, and going to vote for Trump. He made the movie in 4 days a few months ago and put it out for $5. I didn't see it, but it seems like he really understands American's on both sides. Maybe he's a good listener. Why do people assume he is crazy and/or hate him?

If you haven't seen Roger & Me, check it out, I thought it was a classic although it's been 10+ years.

 Oh yeah he is bat shit crazy "Here's a way to stop suicide bombings: Give the Palestinians a bunch of missile-firing Apache helicopters and let them and the Israelis go at each other head to head."

I forget which movie it was, but he talked about the Canadian healthcare system as if it were the be all and end all.  It is far from it.  It may be free, but you get what you pay for; it's a 2-tiered healthcare system based on who you know rather than how much you can pay.  Your dad is a doctor?  You're booked for an MRI on Monday, otherwise wait the 4 months.

I'm not saying I'm a conservative or a liberal, but if you present information as inaccurately as that, I'm out.

As i understand it, it isn't two tiered in that you can opt for
Private insurance if you're inclined.

There are a few Canadians on here. Maybe they can weigh in. All I know is that no system is perfect. If their life expectancies exceed ours, maybe it isn't all bad.

Edit to add: the gap between USA and Canada life expectancy is growing. It now stands at 3+ years in Canada's favor.

I agree no system is perfect but over the years working as a guide and other various gigs with tourists I've talked with a lot of Canadians and they have always been very thankful for their healthcare. From what I can tell it's our media that is influencing Americans negative opinions towards their social med system.

As a medical center Board of Directors member for 25 yrs at a facility onthe Canadian Border , i have not seen any significant volume of Canadian patients seeking treatment here .

To be certain we do see Americans working in the embassies in Ottawa that do ELECTIVE procedures and a very rare individual ( usually wealthy ) that opts for surgery here again for primarily elective type procedures or out patient services .

So my assessment is that for the vast majority of Canadians their system , albeit not perfect seems to work  

ml242 wrote

 It now stands at 3+ years in Canada's favor.

They're very a nice and polite people. That means less stress, less conflict and much less " bang-bang ".

First, provinces control healthcare, so it can vary from one to another.

As I see it, the primary downfall of the U.S. system is cost - both that it's expensive and can vary greatly.  And that when you need it the most it's not like you can shop around.  In Canada, it's quality and timeliness.  It's not like healthcare is free.  I know that in Ontario there's up to a $1500 add-on to your taxes (for a family).

Private insurance in Canada is available and is offered as a benefit to salaried employment.  It will get you things like dental coverage, eye stuff and pay most pharmaceutical costs, e.g. insulin.  I don't think it will help you out if you're lying on a gurney in the hallway of a hospital.  That does happen.  A lot.

Back to topic - these are the things that Moore missed, or decided to not mention.  Still can't remember the movie.

Warp, do you know much about the British system?  From the little I know, it seems to be set up better than the U.S. or Canadian systems.

Honestly I think you have this exactly wrong. From everyone I've talked to, you break a leg skiing, get in a car accident, whatever: you get treated and sent on your way without a bill. The system in Canada fails because if you have a rare condition that is difficult to diagnose, there is no profit motive for multiple MRIs etc. So a wait for a doctor and an extra test could cost a life in that instance.

I haven't seen your movie (sicko?) but from this conversation and what I've witnessed it still seems better.

Yes our taxes are lower. But when I factor in the extra 400$/mo I pay in insurance that still did nothing for me when I went to the ER and still ended up 1200 out of pocket, it has to be pretty close for me financially if not worse in the US (financially for a guy not making a ton of money, healthy, 30s). And they're living longer.

Back to Moore, it seems like he may be right or wrong about healthcare And said some something dumb about Israel 12 years ago. Is he crazy though?

ml242 wrote

Honestly I think you have this exactly wrong. From everyone I've talked to, you break a leg skiing, get in a car accident, whatever: you get treated and sent on your way without a bill. The system in Canada fails because if you have a rare condition that is difficult to diagnose, there is no profit motive for multiple MRIs etc. So a wait for a doctor and an extra test could cost a life in that instance.

True about cost, but the rest is all theory.  Step into an ER where the wait is 8+ hours - that's usual - or, in the case of my grandfather who broke his hip and had to wait 5 days to get surgery.  In between, each day he couldn't eat or drink for 12 hrs. a day in case the OR opened up.  He had the surgery, then died 2 days later.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm just saying one is not better than the other.

But what we haven't considered is how the US system is for poor people. Sure, if you have enough money for it the US health care is awesome but for a huge population that can't afford it those waits sound fantastic compared to going bankrupt trying to take care of your loved ones.

So overall I would argue that the Canadian system is much better overall for the entire population than here.

Also you have to consider the costs of not having people insured. Pre-emptive care costs us a lot less than reactive care and when you have a huge population that can't afford coverage you have much more reactive care patients.

It's funny, I didn't mean this to be about our healthcare. To me insurance != healthcare ever. But that's besides the point. documentary filmmaker has opinions. Tjf  called him "crazy", not the nasty names that moore is usually called, but still.

Moore nailed this election.

Moore made a big deal about how Giuliani knew about the surprise by comey and took it seriously when no one else did.

Seems like a smart dude who is fallible but not worth writing
Off.

I liked Roger and Me and Sicko a lot.

I wonder if the pro gun-law Columbine movie is what really bothers conservatives?

No DB , i haven't had any experience with the British system at all.

Trump hasn’t destroyed your party; he’s your end game, the grim reaper from the seeds you have sown, showing up now to preside over your demise. Defeating Trump, or pushing him to drop out, is NOT what will make this right for the majority of us Americans. Like any good doctor, we need to remove the cancer from its source, and that source is you.Nope not crazy at all.  

I like Moore's movies in the same way as I like the movie "Gasland" - the films piss me off and make me question why things are the way they are. I don't think Moore is as funny as he thinks he is.

I do think Moore speaks for a certain segment of pissed off white people in the Midwest (probably Trump voters this cycle). I don't put much stock in his correct prediction of a Trump victory this time because he was convinced that Romney would win last time.

If Moore was really interested in helping democrats (as his latest movie was meant to do - didn't see it, but heard it was the Hillary tongue job that people around here accuse me of doing), he should probably do some PR for Obamacare by focusing on all the people it has helped. He should probably remind people that Obama saved lots of blue collar jobs in the Midwest by bailing out the auto companies. Those same people whose jobs were saved probably turned around and voted for Trump this time because, "what has Hillary Clinton done for me in 30 years?"

Moore is okay. He's got good and bad traits, just like every person. I like his idea to buy and open that old theater in Flint to run quality films. But I wish he was in better shape and put a little more time into his appearance. I realize it's part of his schtick, but I find it hard to listen to someone's life and government advice when they don't seem interested in taking care of themselves. Also he gets a little too emotional sometimes and it clouds his judgment (currently, he's not accepting the election results and is trying to convince electors in the electoral college to go against their states' wishes).

D.B. Cooper wrote

First, provinces control healthcare, so it can vary from one to another.

As I see it, the primary downfall of the U.S. system is cost - both that it's expensive and can vary greatly.  And that when you need it the most it's not like you can shop around.  In Canada, it's quality and timeliness.  It's not like healthcare is free.  I know that in Ontario there's up to a $1500 add-on to your taxes (for a family).

Private insurance in Canada is available and is offered as a benefit to salaried employment.  It will get you things like dental coverage, eye stuff and pay most pharmaceutical costs, e.g. insulin.  I don't think it will help you out if you're lying on a gurney in the hallway of a hospital.  That does happen.  A lot.

Back to topic - these are the things that Moore missed, or decided to not mention.  Still can't remember the movie.

DB, you are full of misinformation, and shit...and not in that order.   I'm a resident of Ontario.  Born and raised here, and for the most part, lived here all my 55 years.  Raised 2 boys with their mother, my wife...   We're pretty much a middle of the middle class family..  And not once have we ever lacked for first rate medical care.  Nor have we ever had to pay for any 2 tier prioritized services.  Two kids being born - in a hospital -
No charges.  Could have used the services of a midwife instead... Also no cost.   Numerous injuries including broken bones etc, incurred by both active in sports boys... No issues and no cost.  Lots of visits throughout the years to the Dr's office for checkups, tests, and consultations etc... Again, no cost.  
I could go on and on, but the end of every statement of fact will be the same.  Excellent, prompt medical care and no $.  

Yes there is a tax surcharge added to your income tax.. But being the good socialist country that Canuckistan is, the brunt of it is levied on the upper income brackets..  

Just sayin'...

I stand by what I say, Dave.  Every word.  I have an OHIP card.

I'm not saying you use a credit card when you check out, but health care is paid for by payroll taxes and, in the last few years, with an income tax surcharge.

Where you live may be different, but when my grandfather broke his hip (actually top  of the femur), he lay in bed for 5 days before they brought him in to surgery to put in a pin.  He died 2 days after the surgery.

There are many more stories like this I know - personally and from friends directly - that are conveniently omitted by Mr. Moore & company.

Again, I'm not saying that one is necessarily better than another, but instead that there are deficiencies to both.

From the Globe & Mail....
In another, a patient with abdominal pain suffered a burst appendix while waiting 25 hours for emergency surgery.