Jim LaValley's Response to Comments on The Blog

Editor's Note:  As promised, we read through all of the blog comments on the three part piece on Big Tupper. We've boiled the input down to ten questions that we asked Jim LaValley to address.  The results follow. Special thanks to Adk Jeff for his help with this:


QUESTION: What will the skiing experience be like at BT under ACR?  Describe the improvements to be made:  new lifts, snowmaking and grooming, lodge facilities, terrain changes.

JLV: The ski area will improve as sales occur. There are plans to replace lifts, add lifts and expand terrain.  New state of the art snowmaking has been put on order; architects have been working on the design of the main lodge, parking facilities, and support facilities.  And there will be terrain changes made so that natural snow will more easily cover the slopes and will require less man-made snow.

All of this will be done over time, as sales continue with the Adirondack Club. As far as pricing, the owners have made it clear that students with 'A' grades , and with perfect attendance ski for free.  Ticket prices will be below those offered at other regional ski areas.  Additionally, it is more than skiing.  There will be large investments made at the golf course, the marina, the equestrian center, etc.


QUESTION: Why is ACR starting with the Great Camps rather than the ski area?  It would seem that much more regional economic benefit would derive from operation of a re-vitalized ski area than from the Great Camps. Development would then spread outward from the ski area to the surrounding residential slope-side real estate and then ultimately to the Great Camps. That pattern would avoid the need for infrastructure spread out over vast acreage, and avoid the upfront backcountry fragmentation that seems to be controversial with environmental groups.  What is ACR’s logic in pursuing development of the Great Camps first?

JLV:  In the design, it is actually easier to do the infrastructure work with the Great Camp lots.  Their location has municipal water and sewer more readily available.  Regarding the approach of selling the Great Camp lots first – the high end market is there, when the right amenities are included. Believe it or not, there are already commitments from buyers who are interested in the Great Camp lots, and the overall project.

Some in the blog have stated, and I do agree, that the second home market is challenging and I think it will be for another 24 months. There's no point in marketing townhouses or condos now, as that market is non-existent. The other elements of this project are drawing a great deal of interest. There was mention of failed resorts out west, and other areas. There have been some great lessons learned during this economic melt-down, and seeing what happened at these failed resorts, has helped. This project is not going to build roads to nowhere. Roads and infrastructure will be built as sales are made. The failed resorts were required by regulatory agencies to put all infrastructure in before any sales were made. That is a formula for failure, as markets shift and change.  The ACR will adjust with market conditions.


QUESTION: If revitalization of the ski area is contingent upon success with the Great Camps, exactly what will trigger the development of the ski area, sale of a certain number of the Great Camps?  Is it possible that revitalization of the ski area and construction of the “mid-range” housing units might not occur?

JLV: The ski area is an integral part of the overall project.  So are the golf course, the marina, and the equestrian center.  Big Tupper will most likely operate on a small scale for the first couple of years after the ACR receives their permit.  There will be conditions to the permit that will have to be completed, and then sales will dictate the speed in which the other amenities will be completed.  Early on plans call for ski area improvements of over $20M.  Other improvements that are planned for the ski area, have not been priced.


QUESTION: At what point will ARISE hand over the ski area to ACR?  Exactly how and when will that transition take place, and how will the ski area be operated in the meantime?  

JLV: ARISE will operate Big Tupper the upcoming season, and it's likely that ARISE will also handle operation in conjunction with the ACR owners, during the winter of  2011-2012.  We hope that the ACR will receive their permit sometime in late spring or early summer of 2011.  

There will be a list of conditions that they will need to complete, that may require an immediate focus on their part.  Also, it will be a matter of how the IRS will view ARISE operating the mountain in conjunction with the ACR owners.  

Contrary to what some have said, ARISE is not a branch of the ACR.  The line may be blurry to some, because I am a very close friend of Tom Lawson, one of the investors of the Adirondack Club. I will never deny the friendship, — I'm proud to be his friend. Tom and his wife Susan, have invested a lot in our town over the past 10 years, and in my opinion they should be thanked, not criticized, for their belief in Tupper Lake.  

ARISE has been transparent about it's operations. And the Adirondack Park Agency has made it clear — after careful observation, they see no collusion.


QUESTION:  Any estimate of the economic impact of those 8 thousand local / regional skier visits last year?  Do you think any overnight visitation occurred as a result of operation of the ski area?

JLV: The economic impact was visible, and we had a tremendous number of comments from local restaurants, motels, and other businesses about the skier's that visited their establishments.  We offered a "receipt-to-ski" program. Anyone who stayed in Tupper Lake motel, and produced a receipt, skied for free.  Any one who produced a receipt of $30 or more from any other restaurant or retail establishment, skied for free.  This program was very popular by the end of the season.  


QUESTION: What other economic development projects is ARISE involved in?  It seems that almost all of ARISE’s focus is on BT / ACR.

JLV: The mission statement of ARISE is to promote economic stability and growth in our area, while being sensitive to the natural resources.  95% of the funds raised by ARISE have gone to opening and maintaining Big Tupper.  

One blog comment raised the question of why ARISE needs to raise $60,000 before the season starts. Those in the industry understand how expensive it is to operate a ski area. Insurance alone is $25,000. Grips for chairs are now over $1,000 each. And then there are all of the little things. Last year we raised $75,000 through private donations. Ticket sales generated another $70,000. It cost $130,000 to operate Big Tupper last season. Not a lot left over!

Some of the remaining money went to purchase new street banners and informational kiosks – all of which is acceptable under the mission statement and 501(c)3 charter. The rest is going towards getting the ski area ready for this winter. We are not expecting to raise another $75,000 thru private donations, but we are expecting an increase in skier visits. The $60K was taking that into account. And, with the effort to re-open Chair 3, there are added costs. This chair is run with a diesel engine. We have a need for additional safety equipment and we'll need more grooming hours on a leased machine. This is an expensive business, and history should tell us that a ski area cannot survive on its own.  


QUESTION: Has ARISE been involved in any projects to leverage the impact of The Wild Center?

JLV: We have a great relationship with The Wild Center.  We will be continuing a reciprocal ticket program that was started last season.  Admission to The Wild Center is $15, the same as a day ticket for Big Tupper.  Each honored the others receipt for admission.  So, a day on the mountain would give a skier a free day at the world class Wild Center.  It was a huge success.  


QUESTION: What plans are there to make Tupper Lake’s main street more appealing to visitors already travelling to Tupper Lake to visit The Wild Center?

JLV: This is a question that requires more than a few lines.  There are a lot of exciting things planned for the business district, and most of it contingent upon the ACR project happening.  Currently there are restaurants, gift shops, a health spa, and a medical facility that are interested in investing in the Tupper Lake business district.  Some information I cannot share due to confidentiality issues, but I can say that the Tupper Lake business district could look very different, and be a center of activity within the next 7 to 10 years.  
   

QUESTION: Can you cite any examples of developments on a similar scale to the ACR project that ACR and ARISE consider to be successful?

JLV: Personally, I have been looking at the failed resorts, and trying to understand why.  I believe this will help ensure that the ACR does not fall victim to the same conditions that the failed resorts encountered.  


QUESTION:  Given the obvious obstacles to success (geographic isolation, lack of existing ski facilities, plenty of access to lakes and mountains elsewhere in the Adirondacks), why do you think ACR will succeed?

JLV: What some see as obstacles, are the very things future owners in the ACR find attractive.  This project will have a great ski facility, a world class golf course, and a marina that provides access to one of the Adirondacks largest lakes. And there are 80M people within a days drive.  Some see the area as the glass being half empty.  I believe we have a glass that is full of opportunity. Based on the number of investors that are standing by, ready to be involved with the project, I'm optimistic.  

There is an excellent team of investors and advisers on this project.  They have studied the issues, seen markets shift, and understand where markets are headed.  If the investors didn't believe it could work, they would have cut their losses, sold 10 lots around the ski area, and walked away.  They continue to have great faith in this effort.

I'm a life long resident of a community that I have always wanted to see thrive. I see too much fear in the eyes of the local business community, and I'm going working hard doing what I can do to help. If we work together we have a much better chance of helping each other succeed. The Adirondack Club is not the entire package, but it is a great quarterback to build a team around.

Volunteers opened the mountain, but they cannot sustain it. It is clear that they were tired by March last year, and the enthusiasm is somewhat less today, then it was a year ago. I am confident that once the season is upon us, the volunteers will come out in support. The majority of these people have hope that in the near future they will be compensated for their efforts.

Some said that ARISE was desperate. I agree. One only has to look at the APRAP report and then tell me why we shouldn't be. The loss of one average sized school every 19 months; an over reliance on public sector jobs; a median age that is second only to the west coast of Florida. And the trends show a increasing rate of the same. You bet we're desperate. Desperate to have a better balance of economy with environment. People have expressed fear over a landscape that could be changed as a result of the Adirondack Club. In fact, they should have fear over a landscape that has been changing... for the worse.

We can choose to do nothing, or we can choose to do something. I choose to do something.

Thanks to every one for reading, and thanks to Harvey Road for the effort to put this story out there.

Harv, this report should have 60 minutes calling! Thanks for your help in clearing things up AGAIN!!!

I appreciate Jim's responses above.  Jim's done a great job providing information about the project.  Let's all please stick with the facts and keep things civil and respectful.

I have a few other questions about the project.  I don't necessarily expect Jim to respond directly to these because it's just not fair to Jim to keep asking him to come back.  However...

1) I am curious to know how the project will be financed.  I know the infrastructure will be funded from the $45 million IDA loan.  Are there investors lined up to provide financing to the project, or will it be pay-as-you-go with funding for development and improvements being provided from real estate sales?

2) Who holds title right now to the ski area property?  Does ACR / Preserve Associates already own that property and the ski area imrovements (lifts, lodge, equipment), or is the ski area part of the OWD property that is currently in receivership?  Or is it still owned by the former owners / operators of the ski area?

3) Why is it necessary for ARISE to raise funds to cover the Big Tupper operating deficit at all?  Shouldn't ACR / Preserve Associates provide funding to close that $75 thousand gap?  After all, it only makes business sense for ACR to support and build interest in the ski area.  $75 thousand is small change compared to the millions they have already spent, and not funding that deficit seems to send a signal that ACR doesn't beleive in the community.  Raising money from a needy community to support the  private business interests of a potential developer seems backwards.  In fact, ACR should be providing grant money to the community RIGHT NOW for things like main street improvements and other community needs.

Hi Jeff:

Thanks for the questions, and I will do my best to answer, based on what I know.  Not sure how regularly I will be checking in, but I am always glad to provide what I can.  Regarding your questions...

"1) I am curious to know how the project will be financed.  I know the infrastructure will be funded from the $45 million IDA loan.  Are there investors lined up to provide financing to the project, or will it be pay-as-you-go with funding for development and improvements being provided from real estate sales?"  The finance structure is complicated and I don't want to attempt to answer in detail, but I can say that there is NO taxpayer exposure tied to the financing.  There is a combination of bonds for infrastructure that are secured by the property.  It is the bond investor that is at risk.  There is an effort to secure EB-5 money, which was recently used at Jay Peak.  This program is very promising and can be used for other business ventures within the comunity.  There are other private investors who have stated their interest, once the project is approved.  And, resulting sales revenue will be used.  

2) Who holds title right now to the ski area property?  The property is currently owned by Preserve Associates - the investors.  They also own the marina on Tupper Lake, and they have a contractual right on the 6,000 acres currently owned by Oval Wood Dish.  Preserve Associates, or one of their affiliated companies, will take title once a permit is received by the Adirondack Park Agency.  Does ACR / Preserve Associates already own that property and the ski area imrovements (lifts, lodge, equipment), or is the ski area part of the OWD property that is currently in receivership?  Or is it still owned by the former owners / operators of the ski area?  See the answer above.

3) Why is it necessary for ARISE to raise funds to cover the Big Tupper operating deficit at all?  Shouldn't ACR / Preserve Associates provide funding to close that $75 thousand gap?  The ACR investors cannot invest a nickel as it would be considered a violation of their Adirondack Park Agency permit application.  The APA would consider the project being commenced, which would be a violation.  So, in the summer of 2009, I was having dinner with Mike Foxman and Tom Lawson, and we agreed that it was a shame the ski area could not operate, given all of the local interest in skiing.  We came up with the idea of a volunteer group that would then attempt to re-open the mountain.  The investors were thrilled that locals might be given the chance to ski at Big Tupper.  I checked with the Adirondack Park Agency, the various attorneys, and other regulatory agencies, and they all said if there is no collusion, it would be safe to go forward.  Some have accused ARISE of doing work for the ACR.  If we did not come up with the volunteer idea, the ski area would still be closed today.  Again, we thought doing something was better than doing nothing.  And, the community/region was overwhelmingly supportive.  After all, it only makes business sense for ACR to support and build interest in the ski area.  $75 thousand is small change compared to the millions they have already spent, and not funding that deficit seems to send a signal that ACR doesn't beleive in the community.  Raising money from a needy community to support the  private business interests of a potential developer seems backwards.  In fact, ACR should be providing grant money to the community RIGHT NOW for things like main street improvements and other community needs<quote author="Adk Jeff">  The investors have been doing a tremendous amount of work, behind the scenes, trying to pull together community development plans.  Tom Lawson has invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in the community, long before he became an investor in the ACR.  Mike Foxman has been meeting with investors that would play a major role in the redevelopment of our business district.  There are numerous businesses that have a high level of interest, but they are waiting for the permit approval of the ACR.  The current situation does not create confidence for new investment.  The redevelopment of our business center is a key component to the overall success of the ACR.  They need each other.  And again, the ACR developers have been told that they must be very careful on what they are involved in, as it could create the appearance of "commencing the project", without having their permit.  This would be a violation of their permit application, and could jeopardize the overall project.  They have come too far.  
I appreciate Jim's responses above.  Jim's done a great job providing information about the project.  Let's all please stick with the facts and keep things civil and respectful.  Thanks for this last comment.  There are a lot of people trying very hard to re-energize our community.  I respect all opinions, and especially appreciate those that take the approach of wanting to understand the issues before rendering their opinion.  I'll do my best to check back in, and provide what I can, when I can.  Thanks.

Jim laValley wrote..." The finance structure is complicated and I don't want to attempt to answer in detail, but I can say that there is NO taxpayer exposure tied to the financing. "


Well, now wait a minute. Isn't that misleading? With millions of dollars coming from a local Government Authority, the IDA, the Taxpayers are the ones ultimately on the hook, ie exposed.

"If" the project bombs, sure the bond investors lose their money but they lent it to the IDA and the IDA will have responsibility to repay it. You may say it's secured by the property in the event of a project failure, but if the property goes unsold for decades the taxpayers will be making the payments on the loan. If the property is eventually sold for pennies on the dollar the taxpayers still loose. Plus their bond rating will drop potentailly raising interest on existing bonds and future bonds issued.

The Taxpayers are essentailly Co-signers on this loan.

I think everybody here wishes the Village and Mtn all the best. Issues have arisen and people have questions. That's proper in all forms. Any potentail misleading or shell games would naturally raised suspicions. Example - The snow making equipment sell off has been described to be various amounts. If it is as Harv reported, citing Cliff, less than ten guns, Ok no biggie. BUT if it's as originally posted as much more snowmaking equipment was sold off, then it becomes a serious breach of the public's trust. Not because of what was sold, but because of what was told deceptively.

Anyway, I still say His Harvness should arrange a Ski da Tup Day as a good neighbor and fun for the board thang.

"Waaaas Tup?!"

We could call it " Ski Tupper Day "...We could all get an STD in!!! Hehehe. Sound good? I'll get T-shirts made with..." I got an STD from HR "

JK. Take it easy.....but I do have an itch. Hope the conditions will be scratchy. Tho I hear Powder is a good treatment for itches.

please excuse my typing tonight. i'm very tired. the previous owners tried snowmaking. back then the electricity supply was tiered , so much cheap electricity that the village contracted out for. when that was used up, rates for a much more expensive tier kicked in . i believe but i'm not sure but there may have been a third tier. anyway, the mountain made snow all night long and of course they used up all the cheap contract electricity. when it was gone, everyone who used electricity, the whole village and town, was bumped up to the expensive tiers. electric bills doubled because the mountain was using all of the cheap electricity. needless to say, the natives got restless. all the manmade snow would melt during the day and to their great frustration the mountain crew would make snow continually, night after night. to give peter day and leroy pickering credit, they did everything they could do keep that hill open and functioning. they were taking canadien money at par when the exchange rate was nearly 40%, as one example. their ski and stay package was famous allover eastern canada. anyway, the snowmaking went on fruitlessly for maybe 3 ski seasons but the odds were terribly against these local guys ( who never lost as much as a dime in any of their other ventures ) and they threw up their hands and walked away after losing millions.

they left debts reputedly to be in the $55,000 range with the village of tupper electrical department and about $75,000 with franklin county on taxes. these figures, or ones close to them, can be checked with the tupper lake village clerk, the franklin county clerk and with paul maroun, tupper's representative on the franklin county board of legislatures. maroun was extremely influential in absolving the county tax bill so a..c.r. could move forward in buying big tupper. meanwhile the electricity tupper lake now uses is terribly expensive and one hates to guess what the rates would be if there was 4 months of snowmaking on mt. morris . it is one of the big questions that remains unanswered. it's hard to stomach hearing that the taxpayers aren't at risk in all of this.

jim lavalley mentions the golf course a lot in his last few posts . he doesn't own or control one square foot of the country club . and neither does the a.c.r. the town of tupper lake and local taxpayers own every inch of that property and always have . since i was a kid i've heard that the town could never sell it . has there been a change ? i suppose next we'll hear that the a.c.r. can't wait to pump millions into the tupper lake country club to make it a world class golf destination and dovetail it in with all of the new construction and modern improvements at the mountain .

Snowball, I have not talked to anyone about how much snowmaking equipment was sold off because, I don't know. But, it makes sense to me to have sold it. Think about it. I'm not sure when it was installed. BT closed in 1999, in 2009 it was atlease 10+ yrs old. No one knows for sure when a A.C.R. will get their permit. So, why not sell it. It's just getting older. I wouldn't want old snowmaking equipment if I was going to spend millions on building a ski area. I would want new "greener" equipment.

count me in as another who questions why snowmaking and the old equipment is now an issue . snowmaking was never in question  at big tupper this time around . from the gitgo ARISE  knew they would never have the money or the manpower to make snow . they also knew that electricity increases would be another burden on the taxpayers which precluded any snowmaking pipe dreams . tons of stuff was left outside to rust or rot , for more than a  decade . ARISE had two items in their mission statement ,which basically were , " GET THE CHAIR RUNNING AND THE MOUNTAIN OPEN ". period . there are snowcats , broken down equipment, junk and the like up there from another generation . if ARISE  was able to sell or trade stuff to insure the chairlift was up to spec and the grooming equipment insured great ski conditions ,so be it .  nobody was ever against the mountain reopening. they ran the mountain on a shoestring with countless hours of volunteer help and if they were able to cull usable machine parts to save money and time they should be complimented on good business sense . it is hard to believe that anything at all of considerable value was left up there in the first place .  if there was i can only believe it was long past it's sell-by date . the lodge itself is a perfect example . it was once a beautiful , vibrant place with the food and the bar and the big bay windows to watch the activities on the hill. it was a feat unto its ownself salvaging what they could to utilize as a facility .why is the old snowmaking equipment an issue ?

Another great Harvey Road thread. I hope this all leads to Big Tupper remaining open. BT is the first mountain I skied outside of NJ when I was a child. I returned during xmas break 1989-1990. The upper mountain double was open, but there was only one blue trail open to get back to the main area. Most of the main mountain was open, it was snowing lightly and I had a great day. The terrain is ok. There were no lift lines and the price was right. The main reason I did not return was the terrain did not make the 2 hour drive from from North Creek worthwhile. The lack of access and the ok terrain will be huge obstacles to the proposed project.

After renting or owning property in North Creek since 1986 I think the BT project will never come close to selling out 860 units. It might reach 100 units before the wheels come off, but I doubt they will even build that many. There have been about 130 vacation units built in NC since 1987. The Summit (about 82) is the only development (out of maybe 8 or more projects with a total of all projects that would not exceed 800 units) to be completed. If NC cannot support much smaller projects, how can Tupper Lake? Why would potential skiers drive an additional 2 hours on crap roads past NC and the superior skiing at Gore to ski BT? I get to Gore in a little over 3 hours from North Jersey and BT would be about 5 hours. If I were to buy property that included a 5 hour drive every weekend I would be in the Sugarbush Valley or Burke or Stratton/Magic/Bromley area (4 hours). Lake Placid/WF is about 4.5 hours from me.

I have serious doubts about Front Street in North Creek ever happening. Front Street will have better access to population areas, almost all ski in/ski out units, and an existing huge ski area that they do not have to fund. By the way the Gore will never close because it is state owned. The same cannot be said about BT.

I hope it works, but I an unable to see how it will work.

great points x1000 . The total scale of the project was never realistic . The good samaritans who valiantly came out of nowhere to save our village because they had nothing better to do with their time and money were going for the big score . The ski world is littered coast to coast with the pathetic remnants of such projects and the destructive , wasteful , environmentally dangerous remains will linger and be hurtful to many people and their towns and their mountains and their economies for years to come . There are any number of personal agendas being pursued here with" saving tupper "just an afterthought in the whole big plan . Some very intelligent , literate and strong minded people have been and still are against the project for various reasons .A.C.R.'S contention is that their way is the only way . iIf A.C.R. had been more forthcoming and less contentious there might have been a way to consolidate the plans , incorporate other opinions and ideas and had a strong, one-minded , united front moving forward to meet the obstaclesconfronted which in turn might have saved both the project and quite possibly the village . I fear that time is now gone forever . Declaring war on the nature conservancy was a real bad idea . We haven't heard or seen the last of them and they've yet to introduce their big brother , The Sierra Club , into the mix . Other environmental and conservation groups are lined up ,or will be, to fight the A.C.R. project and will . When the mountain first closed  in 1999 the ARISE group or another citizen group like that should have come forward to keep the mountain open . Using skiing in a ski town , which Tupper Lake always was and always will be , as a carrot  and a scare tactic and a promise to the people that ARISE and the ACR are the only answer and the last great hope was wrong from the very beginning . And that arrogance and self-serving, pretentious mindset will almost definitely come back to haunt those of that ilk , endangering if not dooming both the project and our wonderful little Tupper Lake .

adkcliff wrote

Snowball, I have not talked to anyone about how much snowmaking equipment was sold off because, I don't know.

That's what I thought. Thanks for replying openly. Now I shall return the favor.

" IF " the electricity is abnormally expensive in Tupper(quite possible) plus it's tiered, it does make sense to desire the most energy efficient equipment available. Pumps and compressors use alot of juice. Furthermore, the town's residents would be penalized with higher electric bills from every watt consumed by snowmaking over any tier thresholds. That would naturely tick them off and be unfair. Today's equipment should be more energy prudent, perhaps considerably so. Likely Tupper would not have been in position to make snow for sometime to come anyway, so money produced from equipment sales "could have" been invested in other areas around the hill that are crucial to Tupper's opening, i.e. Chairlifts.

That said, It's natural for the skiing centric mindset of this board to have a strong reaction to looseing snowmaking equipment. This project's developers may say "skiing is secondary " to the project and that's all well and good. However, the fact will always remain forefront that without snowmaking the skiing aspect is hamstrung. That means very low ticket sales AND low ticket prices. Also the skiing sales point of the real estate developement will not materialize. Neither will Day Trippers or multiday Trippers. Tup will have to rely on the locals until it can see it's way to Snowmaking, a reality they seem aware of.

Thanks again Cliff.

eEarly on someone , I think snoballs , asked what might have led to Tupper's demise . I've thought long and hard about that the past few days and while I doubt there is a single factor or only one reason I've come to a personal conclusion . I think the village's decline began with the closure of the massive federal Veteran's Administration hospital . Many , many people transferred to other V.A.'s throughout the country and that left quite a "braindrain " in the community . Countless doctors and administrators and their assistants left Tupper , very few , if any , to return . This was followed shortly thereafter by the closure of Mercy General Hospital and a further drain on highly skilled , highly motivated leaders and innovators, which further weakened the community as a whole . Some may disagree and I would love to hear their theories .
   I entered high school in 1965 . The following is a PARTIAL list of thriving businesses that were open daily and were the backbone of the community . I'm sure I left some out and i apologize for that . I hope other posters will feel free to add to my list . For non-tupper natives please understand that almost 100% of these businesses were open concurrently and were successful , putting food on the table , clothes on our backs and gifts under the tree or by the menora . I wish you all could have seen our little town! I'm sorry for you that you didn't grow up here . Please forgive me if there are redundancies or spelling errors , just trying to remember all the bars and liquor stores gave me a hangover .And why were there so many car dealerships and gas stations ? I've tried to stick to a list that , sadly to recount , thrived in 1965 and before but was gone forever by 1985 . Add any you feel belong .

In no particular order , just as they came to mind .all of these businesses were up and open in 1965 . almost all were gone by 1985 or shortly thereafter .ginsberg's department store , larocque's dept. store , endicott jojohnson shoe store ,tip top sports shop ,chalmer's radio and tv -sales and services ,donovan's photography studio ,maid's pharmacy , manakey's pharmacy , cohn's pharmacy (we deliver !) , lenney's pharmacy, mccartney's sportswear ,futtermann's furniture and appliances ,, bailey's motel , george e. nelson insurance co.,eugene rule's garare and chrysler-plymouth sales ,upstate autoservice-rambler sales ,sears , roebuck and company ,national army store ,amer maroun store , maroun's shoe sales and repair , ellis' market , lebouef's market , broad street liquor store ,sarazen and garrelts , inc., roy's restaraunt( man could those girls cook and bake !),the traveler's inn , john maroun's sports shop , johnny's candyland , asell's fine jewelry,the holiday house restaraunt, the blue anchor restaraunt ,waukesha grill ( dear GOD  , please , if we could have only back , make it the wash!?!),richer funeral home ,azar's funeral home ,lavalley and woulf ( cucky lavalley and eddie woulf NEVER let anyone go cold in winter because they ran out of fuel and money , EVER , regardless of who you were , MAY GOD REST AND KEEP THEM BOTH ),ernie gionet and sons herdware , inc.

hardware , (continued )brook's taxi , dugan's taxi , magrino's drycleaners ,northland auto supply , corneaus bros . meat market .adirondack pastry shop ( okay GOD  , if we can't have the waukesha back could we please get one more glazed donut ?),altamont milk and ice cream company.iroquois hotel ,northland hotel , ptince albert hotel , the plaza hotel , waverly hotel , windsor hotel , the elite hotel , uncle lou's tavern , martin's logging supply ,carl f. fento , jr. optometry ,the elco market , dehis' i.g.a., michael's i.g.a. , abdallah's i.g.a. ,henry cote's i.g.a., no typo , 5 !~ 5 , count 'em !, a& p's,the grand union foodstore , jim ellis's daD's place on upper park street ,toneth motors sales and services ,al furnia construction , rod beaulieu inc . (beautiful homes ) , wm.c. johnson and sons construction, miller and mcnamara consrtuction company ,tupper lake coca cola and bottling co.,inc .( a tupper boy rose to THIRD in the coke hierarchy , way to go charlie !) ,raeoil/raegas corp., the wheel inn , the sunshine store ,j.j. newberry's dept.store , the oval wood dish corp., the draper's, imc , shopper's world , the weekender ,the hi-hat lounge, woods laundry and dry cleaners ,the miss tupper diner , the altamont milkbar ,jack's diner ,kiklevich's liquor store , gabriel's market , l& m garage and repair , faust esso service station , savard's upholstery shop , the yarn shop , raymond's liquor store ,mary's dress shoppe , rickamer's jewelry store ,somers garage -ford sales and service ,tupper lake i.g.a. foodstore ,woods bros. plumbing and heating , the laundymat ,clark lumber company , armour meatpackers , swift's meats , c& l lumber ,bob's steakhouse, the riverside restaraunt ,bellows garage ,doc connor and sons , tupper lake flying service( we even had TWO  airstrips !),thomas' flower shop , waukesha motel and cabins ,tip top liquor store ,park st. market ,

(continued ),north country manfacturing corp ( "the dress factory'),louie's sub shop, jean's beans , tom's barber shop , charlie's barber shop , bea's subshop( will NEVER  be beat , whatta sandwich ) ,the franklin dairy ,don's men shop ,kelly's driving range and gift shop , chapman's gift center , hoffman's pharmacy ,bailey's motel , barcomb's gulf gas station (-"full service and a set of 4 drinking glasses with a fill up !) ,tanny's taxi service ,pisanchin logging , inc .,, pilon's service station , stanley moody's gas and service , salamy's gas station , ( please be reminded that in 1965 gas was 22 cents a gallon!) ,bigerow's photography , monakey and meader , thomas f. larkin and sons,the adirondack plywood company , mademoiselle dress shoppe , montgomery ward and company , ernest j, wood inc . roy provost accounting , mason's restaraunt , lafave's bar and grill ( the world's coldest 16 ounce glass of draft beer for 25 cents !) ,harold's atlantic richfield full-services ,lee's faust esso( for those not in the know , tupper was/is divided into two parts , uptown and downtown , also known as faust because of it's postal designation ),richer's barber shop ,eddie martin's esso (" 15-2 , 15-4 - sweet jesus ! where all the good cribbage players learned to play and play well , eddie suffered no fools ) ,ray mikall real estate brokers , upstate auto supply corp., gillis's nursery , northern lights soft ice cream , the drive -in outdoor theater ( dad , can i take kathy to the drive in ? NO-  do you think i'm stupid ),E&E bakery , the mountain deli ,lavalley and whitman trucking ,facteau's shoe repair , "THE CHARCOAL ROOM FINE DINING @ THE GRAND UNION HOTEL ,

( continued ) , shore acres motor court ,lakeland cleaners , carrow's sunoco and service , stone's barber shop , the blvd. inn , the traveler's inn , ivan's lounge , bob's uptown grill , marco dalpiaz inc .ken's barber shop , dorothy family motel , the sunmount grill ( shuffleboard and beer!) , the conifer inn , the villa (dinner and dancing ) and countless doctors and dentists and lawyers and bankers and lumbermen too numerous to mention . ALL OF THESE DID BUSINESS IN TUPPER LAKE IN 1965 AND ARE NOW LONG GONE . somebody else count 'em , but rem3ember, i know i missed some . it's an absolute crying shame any way you look at it  . may the good lord bless all of these folks . most are gone now  but  obviously not forgotten . they were our youth . and our future . and they did us  well .and it goes without saying that we'll never see that kind again . may GOD  keep and bless you  all .

It is incredible to hear about all of these businesses that used to be in Tupper Lake.  I think the theory about the hospital closing is so interesting and sad.  It must have been amazing to live in a place like Tupper when it was thriving.  I would love to see BT open for the locals.  I cannot imagine driving from North Creek to ski BT when I have a pass for Gore, but I know I echo the sentiments of many people when I say I hope they can make the mountain viable.

I was remiss in leaving out three other closings that impacted the quality of life in Tupper . First , the Holy Ghost Academy high school , then the Holy Name parish grade school and finally , after awhile , the Holy Ghost Academy grade school . Our nuns were French and today that would be a problem . Mass EVERYDAY from 7-730 in French , followed immediately by mass in Latin  from 730 to 800 .If there was a funeral seventh and eighth graders stayed and sang  or served an entire Roman Catholic high funeral mass , in Latin .Then to school where we first sang "The Marseilles , in French of course ,then our own national anthem . There was a 5 minute bathroom break  which was never long enough especially with a nun in the men's lavatory monitoring behaviour ,followed by the first class of the day . Which was French language studies of course ! We got a break from French upon entering high school when we were allowed to switch to a three or four year Latin course of studies , Latin then being a new york state regents exam . Oh how we envied the public school kids !!!!! To goreskimom and the others who emailed me with kind words , thank you . You all should try to spend a day at Big Tupper and enjoy our hospitality . Try the French club's chili and the Spanish club's french onion soup and of course the world famous hot chocolate ! Those of you who haven't experienced The Wild Center(wildcenter.org ) are really , really missing out . It is truly an amazing place and a lot of fun for the whole family . Thanks again for your support and we'll look for you to visit soon .

If the financing is to detailed for JLV to comment on then he shouldn't be such a big proponent of this project. If it can't be explained in a manner that is easily understood then there is a good reason the supporters want it that way. Reason being, if they explained it accurately no locals in their right mind would support the project. The PILOT benefits the developer, he doesn't have to pay for the bulk of the infrastructure, the rich second luxury homeowners in his development pay for it through the diversion of their taxes. Taxes that should be going to the local taxing entities to help lower the existing LOCALS tax burden.