Kids, Homework, College, AP, Ski Racing, All of It

Z....did he take the Spanish Regents exam yet?

he goes to a private school thus no NYS regents exams which is good as the teachers can teach the subject not the exam

JTG4eva! wrote

In the end, given that she got into her first choice school, it didn’t matter much to my daughter, but it could matter in different circumstances.  Also, it can never hurt to have a higher gpa and class standing.  The point was, depending upon what field a kid wants to study, AP classes may or may not be a good thing and even for an extremely bright and competitive student they could, perhaps unnecessarily, pull a gpa down without providing any real benefit, and there may be better class options to pursue other than AP.

I have a different viewpoint on this one.  If you look at the Common Data Sets for a lot of competitive colleges, rigor of secondary school courseload is one of the most important factors in admissions decisions - for example both University of Michigan and Clarkson weight it equally with GPA and above all other factors. Taking easier courses to boost your GPA may be counter-productive.   All guidance counselors have to submit a school report to the colleges indicating how that student fares compared to their classmates - if they can't check the box that says "took most challenging courseload possible", it can hurt the student's admission chances to competitive programs.  It doesn't mean that you have to take every AP, but a high GPA without course rigor can be a red flag for admissions.  My daughter's guidance counselor was very strict with her and wouldn't let her slack off at all during senior year, even refusing to let her take what she considered the "easier" AP classes in favor of the "harder" ones.  AP credit is also very useful, especially in engineering, as placing out of some of the intro classes and distribution requirements can make a tough schedule much easier.

Z wrote

so while we are on the subject of high school classes to look good or bad for college I have a question

My son's worst subject has been Spanish.  He has 2 years in by taking it in 7th thru 9th as they count middle school as one  years credit and got a B- this past year by far his worst grade.  I think he should bow out of Spanish 3 as Stem and business schools for the most part require none to 2 years of a foreign lang.  

My thinking Spanish is hurting his gpa and taking time and effort away from important classes.  If he does this he will be be able to fit in another AP course in down the road.  My wife disagrees.  I did a search on 30 schools that he might be interested in and only a select few liberal arts schools had a req for a 3rd year of Lang and those are more the D1 ski schools which I don't think he is going to go for anyway like StL and Middlebury.

Your thoughts on this guys?

For what it's worth, prep schools near Boston require completing Level 3 of a foreign language.  They offer Level 4 and even Level 5 for major language such as Spanish, French, or Chinese.  In a global economy, knowing a non-English language is a valuable skill.  Even if it's just enough to be social at business meetings or meals.  I found having a working knowledge of French useful on a few business trips to France.  Most of my French classes came before college well before I knew what my major was going to be.

My daughter had enough Spanish in elementary and middle school (North Country School G7-9) to place out of Spanish 1.  Languages at a prep school are more equivalent to college level courses than most public schools (first hand experience for me).  She opted to change to Mandarin in 10th grade even though that meant taking it 10th-12th grades.  But for her, languages are a special interest.

In short, I would agree with your wife and others who think a second language is a good life skill.

As for a college application, showing some stubbornness at a subject that doesn't come as easily has value that goes beyond a simple GPA number.  Every college admission talk I've attended has emphasized a "wholistic" approach to evaluation an admission package and de-emphasized SAT/ACT scores and GPA.  They know as well as any college consultant what strategies are used to up a GPA.

I took French all through high school. I was never too good at it. My college had a requirement that I take 3 semesters of a language. I took the placement test (because I might have been able to skip a semester or 2), but didn't do well and I would have had to start over with French. So I took 3 semesters of college Spanish. No huge deal.

Great discussion.

I feel completely out of the loop here.  My own experience, was that I got ok grades in high school, B's mostly, a few A's, no C's but a D in Calculus one quarter. I did one sport and most of my homework and that was it. I repeated my senior year at a private school (my parents idea, hated it) and that really seemed to help me get into the college of my choice. I loved college.

In college it was the same thing B's some A's a few C's.  I graduated, and no one has ever even seen my transcripts.  Not that I am some huge success but I do like life.  I hope my own experience doesn't hurt my daughters chances for happiness.

Z wrote

PT

Please return to counting your money you made by inventing the internet as I recall you blabbing about awhile back.  
Warp called it right a legend in his own mind.

Wow, considering that most responses have agreed with what I have said - I sure don’t understand this response. Be an ass hole if you like.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

I took French all through high school. I was never too good at it. My college had a requirement that I take 3 semesters of a language. I took the placement test (because I might have been able to skip a semester or 2), but didn't do well and I would have had to start over with French. So I took 3 semesters of college Spanish. No huge deal.

I took 2 years of Spanish in HS, hated it and my grades showed, Cs&Ds. I choose a college with an undergraduate degree that didn’t require a foreign language.

Took 3 yrs of Latin and 2 yrs of French in HS. The french was an extra course there was no AP back in the late 50's and early sixties . Many who had college and beyond as a goal did so then in addition to all the required Regents diploma courses .  Latin was highly recommended for kids thinking about Medicine or Law . I had thought about Law at that point in my life .

Took 2 yrs of French in college . Did well in languages in both hs and in college . I spent a while in an immersion program in Quebec for a couple of weeks speaking strictly french while there . I can still get by when we are in Montreal or Quebec . Several of my degrees are written in Latin ,so at least i knew what in hell they said

Could this be the reason we don’t understand each other?

No i think we understand each other , frankly on a personal level i have no issue with you at all .

WHILE We may not agree on politics ,that is not unusual .

Frankly i take no joy out of the bs or nasty ass stuff that has been going on here SINCE 2016 but frankly like you am human and respond in kind ..
 
NOT PROUD OF IT , BUT AM HUMAN

warp daddy wrote

Took 3 yrs of Latin and 2 yrs of French in HS. The french was an extra course there was no AP back in the late 50's and early sixties . Many who had college and beyond as a goal did so then in addition to all the required Regents diploma courses .  Latin was highly recommended for kids thinking about Medicine or Law . I had thought about Law at that point in my life .

Took 2 yrs of French in college . Did well in languages in both hs and in college . I spent a while in an immersion program in Quebec for a couple of weeks speaking strictly french while there . I can still get by when we are in Montreal or Quebec . Several of my degrees are written in Latin ,so at least i knew what in hell they said

LOL.  For some reason Latin is very popular in NC public high schools.  Had an 8th grade girl in a Math mentoring program tell me a while back that she planned to take Latin because her goal was to go to law school.  My brother had five years of Latin before high school in a NYC private school in your timeframe.  His English vocabulary was always way better than mine.

My cousins who were born and raised in France were fluent in French and English by middle school.  Older boy was decent in Chinese as well since his grandmother would stay with his family for 6 months at a time when he was little.  He also learned German and spent had a couple summer stays with a German family.  Knowing more than one language is standard for Europeans.  He got a degree from the best technical/engineering college in France.  Went on to work in marketing and sales for HP.

Knowing English in addition to their native language is required for anyone to do well in business who lives in an Asian country.  Waiting until high school to study a second language is what makes it hard for many American students.

I took French every year from kindergarten through 10th grade and can still barely speak or understand it. Not sure why I was so bad at it.

Don’t feel bad about it. Some of us don’t have a head for languages.

I had a friend in Grad School who had a BS in physics from Carnegie Mellon, I asked him how he got through the foreign language requirement, he told me that they accepted a year or fortran  as a foreign language. I was not so lucky, had to get my BS in engineering where they waved the requirement.

Harvey wrote

Great discussion.

I feel completely out of the loop here.  My own experience, was that I got ok grades in high school, B's mostly, a few A's, no C's but a D in Calculus one quarter. I did one sport and most of my homework and that was it. I repeated my senior year at a private school (my parents idea, hated it) and that really seemed to help me get into the college of my choice. I loved college.

In college it was the same thing B's some A's a few C's.  I graduated, and no one has ever even seen my transcripts.  Not that I am some huge success but I do like life.  I hope my own experience does [not] hurt my daughters chances for happiness.

From what you've mentioned about your family, I have not doubt your daughters will be quite capable of figuring out what's important in life.

I have relatives in the next generation who got a few C's and B's in high school, much to the consternation of their parents.  Both my family and my husband's family are highly educated, with grad degrees, law degrees, and a physician.  Those kids got into good colleges, public and private.  Some went on to grad school and others simply started working.  As far as I know, all are happy with their choices and so are their parents.

My father was a professor and my mother had a Ph.D. too.  So going to college was expected and they were prepared to pay the college bills.  After that my brother and I were free to choose what to do next, and work to pay our own bills.  My parents' thinking was that it didn't really matter what 4-year college I attended.  My mother thought going to a state school made perfect sense after paying for private school for several years.  I chose UNC-Chapel Hill since she had established residency in NC by the time I graduated from high school.

My daughter is a solid B student who works hard in every course but finds some subjects very difficult.  I have no doubt her overall application will appeal to more than one college she plans to apply to.  Is she looking at Ivy League or honors programs?  No.  Do I care?  No.  I just want her to have a great 4 years at a college where she feels comfortable as she explores the possibilities for her future.

Harvey wrote

I took French every year from kindergarten through 10th grade and can still barely speak or understand it. Not sure why I was so bad at it.

The way foreign languages used to be taught was more rote memory in many schools.  One reason I never wanted to take any Chinese courses.  The way my daughter is learning Chinese is much more fun with a much greater emphasis on making sure day-to-day conversation vocabulary is the starting point.  Technology helps too for improving listening comprehension and pronunciation.

The hardest part of continuing towards a Ph.D. in Physics for my brother was passing the foreign language tests.  He had to pass in two languages.  He's plenty smart in general, but languages is not natural for him.  Perhaps more like the innate talent for music or art, more so than for other academic subjects.

I lucked out.  Picked a specialty where the graduate degrees came from a professional school, not an academic department, so there was no foreign language requirement.

I don't care that I couldn't learn French it just surprised me.  It also surprised me how much Italian I picked up when I spent 3 weeks in Rome.  It's a stereo type I guess but the French seemed judgemental and the Italians were welcoming.

Fortran fulfilling a language requirement, that's awesome.

Marznc we got some family stuff in common. PhD parents who paid for college outright and didn't really care where I went or what I studied. It's going to be interesting to see what effect all this specialization has on society.  I feel really lucky to have gone for liberal arts and actually found a job that suits me.

Harvey wrote

I don't care that I couldn't learn French it just surprised me.  It also surprised me how much Italian I picked up when I spent 3 weeks in Rome.  It's a stereo type I guess but the French seemed judgemental and the Italians were welcoming.

Fortran fulfilling a language requirement, that's awesome.

Marznc we got some family stuff in common. PhD parents who paid for college outright and didn't really care where I went or what I studied. It's going to be interesting to see what effect all this specialization has on society.  I feel really lucky to have gone for liberal arts and actually found a job that suits me.

Immersion is the easiest way to learn any language.  My high school French classes were taught in French only.  My daughter attended an immersion language camp last summer that was fabulous.  A program in MN that's been around since the 1960s covering a bunch of languages, including Scandinavian languages not commonly taught in American schools.  Campers include pure beginners as young as 8 who only stay for a week to high school students who have studied the language for 3+ years who stay for 4 weeks and can get high school credit.

My mother teased her department Dean in the 1940s that either English should count as a "foreign language" since her native language was Chinese.  Or else Chinese should count.  Of course back then only core European languages were considered for the language requirement.  Those were the languages in which professional journals were published.  As a chemist my father had a working knowledge of written German.

Specialization started in many fields quite a while ago.  My academic background is in statistics.  But my interest was in data processing aka data management, not analysis.  Became a generalist but it was always a bit harder because other statisticians couldn't understand my seeming lack of focus.  Have a friend who has a science Ph.D. who is currently working with a business development and marketing department in a pharma company.  Ready to go back into research.  Has found that being exposed to the business side of the company was eye-opening.

A college my daughter visited recently was founded as a liberal arts school 90 years ago.  Foreign languages are valued so two years in high school is required for applicants.  Lots of opportunities to study abroad.  The business management program is unusual because it was always combined with arts.  The idea is that to be successful in business it helps to know something about graphics related to advertising.

Met a lawyer and his wife at Powder Mountain in 2017 during my daughter's spring break ski trip.  ("Met" via EpicSki originally.)  He's also a very good photographer.  Wife is an artist and manages an art gallery.  After seeing a few of my daughter's photos from an art course, his advice was that there were enough scientists and lawyers but not enough artists.

I’m not saying to avoid AP classes (especially for STEM), or to slack on rigor.  I’m just saying that one shouldn’t blindly push on to the next AP class (like AP Calculus for a non-STEM student) if the option to take rigorous college level courses through your high school exists.