Lance

The Yankees should keep theirs every other team has to turn theirs titles in.


Why does it matter if they take titles away? If you are tarnished people know.  


I rooted for Lance.  Liked the chicks he was dating.  Was not surprised he was cheating,  Th way he handled it told us his story.

He is a big dick that could/still can peddle like a bastard.

D.B. Cooper wrote

Harvey wrote

D.B. Cooper wrote

he destroyed anyone in his way

'Splain Ricky.

There was a 60 Minutes piece on him a few years back.  One of his teammates, Tyler, Taylor, something like that was under the bus that Lance drove.

That would be Tyler Hamilton
After he left Lance’s team he became a leader of his new team and was caught doping to win
There literally is no one at the high level in the sport over a 20 yr span that was not doping.
Lance didn’t start or end the doping he may have been a bit more of a prick but as we saw from MJ in Last Dance the alpha male is usually a prick

tjf1967 wrote

The Yankees should keep theirs every other team has to turn theirs titles in.

Why does it matter if they take titles away? If you are tarnished people know.  

Really, I'm most upset at Roger Clemens, at the height of roid rage, throwing a bat shard at Mike Piazza.

Marcski wrote

Lance is a cheater.  He let down a lot of people, regardless of whether "everyone else was doing it".  And, as others have noted, he took anyone down in his way....The Patron of the Tour was while they were on the bikes...not off like Lance did.  A true champion is a gentleman out of the ring, so to speak. He and all dopers should be stripped of their crowns/titles.  Clemons, McGuire, Bonds, all of them.  Their records should be disregarded and they should not be allowed in the Hall of Fame. Period.  Doping is cheating. If it is allowed, condoned or disregarded, it ruins the essence of sport.

If you want to disregard dopers in MLB you would need to close most of the HOF and eliminate many of the records. Amphetamines have been part of baseball since WW2 (some use estimates were as high as 80%). They were finally banned by MLB in 2005, 14 years after steroids were banned. Amphetamines have been illegal to use without a prescription in the US since 1970.  Read Jim Bouton's book Ball Four from 1970 were he recounts 'greenie' use.
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-2006-06-25-0606250153-story.html

Great athletes are just great athletes and nothing more - to expect them to be smart, noble, generous, wonderful people is just not fair to them. The incredible fame and fortune that exists at the top of most sports is an incredible draw, especially for those in striking distance and still in their late teens/early 20s.

Lance Armstrong was a world class triathlete at age 15, well before he was doping. Maybe he would have been in the peloton without doping, but maybe not. Maybe we need to look at the Tour during those years as an insanity that only worked with doping.

MC2 5678F589 wrote

You guys have the same feelings about Roger
Clemens and A-Rod and other people in other sports?

What about when A-Rod buys the Mets??? LOL

x10003q wrote

Great athletes are just great athletes and nothing more - to expect them to be smart, noble, generous, wonderful people is just not fair to them. The incredible fame and fortune that exists at the top of most sports is an incredible draw,...

There is the great Yankee, Yogi Berra, a most definite "one a kind" who makes life better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uztp6jSARo&fbclid=IwAR2ZA5Oo4ApUdDF3tUUg_aoF5_P-B5aDIVg8RO-NQrZHPXfFECXj8DWXyx8
 

Z wrote

Lemond who was kind of a pussy.

Really? I guess it takes one to know one

Lemond, in my opinion, has much bigger nutz than the cheater in chief.  I guess it depends on personal values... I'm not a "win at all costs" kind of guy.  Have you read The Secret Race?  Would it be ok with you, if a kid you were coaching asked you to hook him or her up with some PEDs?  

Notoriously, Lemond had very little team support.  He's not a super likable guy, but it terms of capacity for suffering, I think he puts Lance to shame.  He was 100% clean.  You can't say that for many people in the sport.  

I disagree with your analysis of modern tactics.  The amount support the teams receive today for the grand tours turns modern day riders into pussies.  I'd like to see how Lance would've performed in a self supported ultra endurance race.    

You do realize that Lemond was shot and nearly killed in a hunting accident, and then came back to win another tour.

nepa wrote

Z wrote

Lemond who was kind of a pussy.

Really? I guess it takes one to know one

Lemond, in my opinion, has much bigger nutz than the cheater in chief.  I guess it depends on personal values... I'm not a "win at all costs" kind of guy.  Have you read The Secret Race?  Would it be ok with you, if a kid you were coaching asked you to hook him or her up with some PEDs?  

Notoriously, Lemond had very little team support.  He's not a super likable guy, but it terms of capacity for suffering, I think he puts Lance to shame.  He was 100% clean.  You can't say that for many people in the sport.  

I disagree with your analysis of modern tactics.  The amount support the teams receive today for the grand tours turns modern day riders into pussies.  I'd like to see how Lance would've performed in a self supported ultra endurance race.    

You do realize that Lemond was shot and nearly killed in a hunting accident, and then came back to win another tour.

Yes I’m aware Lemond brother in law shot him.  I also don’t in the least believe Lemond is the choir boy he says he was
They were all doping thru that era just not with Epo as it was not invented yet and you don’t win a grand tour clean against those that were doping.

Z wrote

Yes I’m aware Lemond brother in law shot him.  I also don’t in the least believe Lemond is the choir boy he says he was
They were all doping thru that era just not with Epo as it was not invented yet and you don’t win a grand tour clean against those that were doping.

Fair enough.  We disagree on the evaluation of the integrity of one rider over another.  I don't believe there has ever been any evidence uncovered to lead one to believe that Lemond was a doper.  Perhaps you can you produce some evidence to support your claim?

What about the other question?  If one of your racers said "Coach Z, I need some PEDs because'you don’t win a world cup clean against those that were doping"

Would that be OK with you?

nepa wrote

What about the other question?  If one of your racers said "Coach Z, I need some PEDs because'you don’t win a world cup clean against those that were doping"

Would that be OK with you?

Shit, I wasn’t even thinking along those lines. Z should be the guy most vehemently opposed to PEDa and cheating of any kind. But he’s here defending the most infamous cheater in modern sports. That’s pretty ducked up.
Z- how much cheating do you encourage in your racers? Keep in mind you have the right to remain silent.

Actually, Lemond won two tours following the hunting accident, which likely cut his career short.

All of the wins that Lance vacated, the final stage was a ceremonial promenade into Paris.

In 1989, the final stage was a time trial.  The race of truth.  Lemond went off without a heart rate monitor, and he said to his team manager, I don't want splits.  I saw that that stage.  He rode his ass off to make up a 50 second deficit.  Second place Laurent Jalabert, by contrast, looked like he was cycling in cement.  

That's after going through the Alps and the Pyrenees.  Don't need to hear anything about guys (or girls) on the pro tour being pussies.

tirolski wrote

x10003q wrote

Great athletes are just great athletes and nothing more - to expect them to be smart, noble, generous, wonderful people is just not fair to them. The incredible fame and fortune that exists at the top of most sports is an incredible draw,...

There is the great Yankee, Yogi Berra, a most definite "one a kind" who makes life better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uztp6jSARo&fbclid=IwAR2ZA5Oo4ApUdDF3tUUg_aoF5_P-B5aDIVg8RO-NQrZHPXfFECXj8DWXyx8

Don't most professional athletes sign a code of conduct? Or something like that?

Harvey wrote

I dated McGwire's cousin. He was an asshole.

Peter Minde wrote

Actually, Lemond won two tours following the hunting accident, which likely cut his career short.

All of the wins that Lance vacated, the final stage was a ceremonial promenade into Paris.

In 1989, the final stage was a time trial.  The race of truth.  Lemond went off without a heart rate monitor, and he said to his team manager, I don't want splits.  I saw that that stage.  He rode his ass off to make up a 50 second deficit.  Second place Laurent Jalabert, by contrast, looked like he was cycling in cement.  

That's after going through the Alps and the Pyrenees.  Don't need to hear anything about guys (or girls) on the pro tour being pussies.

if i recall Lemond won one tour before that hunting accident and one after.  They say lead posioning cut his career short.  He hated Lance for passing him as the greatest US cycling star

since you brought it up lets talk about that time trial
until very recently that was the fastest time trial on at 33.89 mph of any time trial in Tour history.  In 2015 it was finally broken at 34.5 mph.  Lemond did that riding a heavy steel bike with on the very first gen rudimentary attempts to be aero.  Lance rode his time trials on EPO or his own blood boosted with aerospace grade carbon fiber bikes and after intense dialing in his aero postion in a wind tunnel.  It took over 25 years for anyone to break Lemond's record.  Now you might say wow Lemond was just really good that day - NFW Lemond did that on the final stage of a tour without doping and it held up against the best technology both in doping and bikes for that long.  Lemond was good but it is laughable to think he could have done it clean back then vs everything that came after him.

I love cycling and accept that doping has been and likely always will be part of the sport.  Lance is the GOAT of grand tour GC riders of cycling without a doubt.  

Watched end of Lance part 2 tonight

Tyler Hamilton strongly inferred that doping had been huge in the 80’s and said other Americans that had retired 10 years before him were in the clear.  That was clearly aimed at Lemond.

I don’t care if Lemond did dope as to me it’s a given He did but his whole holier than thou bit against Lance makes me not like him

Z wrote

Watched end of Lance part 2 tonight

Tyler Hamilton strongly inferred that doping had been huge in the 80’s and said other Americans that had retired 10 years before him were in the clear.  That was clearly aimed at Lemond.

I don’t care if Lemond did dope as to me it’s a given He did but his whole holier than thou bit against Lance makes me not like him

Just playing Devil's Advocate here Z.

As a coach, I really think you should think this one through.

Put yourself in the position of Lemond's father.  Let's say Little Z ascends to the elite levels of ski racing.  He wins a World Cup.  Everyone thinks he's a doper.  Of course, there's no evidence to support that claim.  He always tests clean.  He puts a lot of time in on mountain.    In reality, he's just a hardworking, talented ski racer.

How would you feel about those who accused him of doping?

Would I want my kid to be a pro cyclist?  No way in hell.  Nor would I want them to box or do MMA.  

I am a long time fan Of the sport but I accept that asking people to ride 2000+ miles over mts in 3 weeks is an inhuman task.  The riders should be allowed to use their own blood in a controlled fashion.  The generation of Lance have all come to grips and accepted they were doping.  Everyone knew it at the time inside the sport.  Lemond and his generation get all on thier high horse about the Lance when they were cheating too but there just was no testing back then so no body got caught.   It was more like baseball in the anything goes period.

Thankfully alpine ski racing is not a sport you can dope your way to any advantage.  There could be some fluorocarbon wax cheating of skis I guess going forward I guess.  Not sure how they plan to police that.

The Tour riders have been using chemical enhancements since WW1 and maybe before that. The 1970s/1980s were all about steroids and amphetamines. LeMond has maintained he never doped and has never failed a test. He is pretty loud about his stance against doping. I would imagine if somebody witnessed LeMond doping Lance Armstrong would found out and used it against LeMond.

x10003q wrote

I would imagine if somebody witnessed LeMond doping Lance Armstrong would found out and used it against LeMond.

This is almost certainly true. I don’t follow the sport as closely as some of you guys but I have to say I find the arguments being advanced on Lance’s behalf to be very depressing. Using Lance’s guilt to slander Lemond and thus re-elevate Lance is perverse.