Largest snow gun upgrade ever for VT ski areas

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it's a trojan horse because the new guns all suck. Give me a ratnick and a portable diesel compressor, unfortunately...

NYSERDA has this cool little formula to calculate efficiency vs energy saved vs cost.  The older gear easily qualifies.  They are not big into expansion, but they are really big into upgrades.  If you can find something that takes energy paid for by tax dollars and prove that you can save energy over X amount of time... they will pay for it.  Combine it with National Grids deals and you can go pretty far.  They are currently working on lamping everything in the state with LED's due to these funds.  

Adk Jeff wrote

I hate to say it but Vermont really has their shit together

I think this is awesome.

VT has been making serious hay with this on social media in the last two months as well they should.

This can only benefit all skiers including us IMO.

ML explain the dislike of HE? It takes longer, but the snow is cheaper and can be made at more margin temps right?

I think it's fluffier too.  

Adk Jeff wrote

Efficiency Vermont’s "Great Snow Gun Roundup" will support the purchase of approximately 2300 new low energy snow guns for the upcoming season, and in return the resorts will donate 1800 older model snow guns to scrap.

Wait, what?

"and in return the resorts will donate 1800 older model snow guns to scrap."

I thought that's what I read. "Donate to scrap" is today's Orwellian phrase. Have a good one, and, hail, Oceania!

I also think the snow out of these new guns is much better.   On cold days, (below 15 F) the snow is very similar to powder.  There were nights the last two years where I refused to go home before closing because skiing run after run on new tracks with the guns dumping so much fluff it was covering tracks I laid 15 minutes before.  

Best part....SO QUIET!  

When Kmart is blowing full tilt using the older guns, the noise is so loud I feel dizzy, almost drunk, it takes energy out of you.     However I must say that my perception of this is only recent.    Could be I am getting used to the new quiet guns and the change with the older 2000 decible guns is very noticable.  Or I'm just getting older and noise affects me more....  AKA, your gramps yelling:  "Damm noisy kids"    

I do agree, the old guns have their place on certain slopes.  Plus you know your mountain is blowing cause you can hear it, and that alone warms the heart.      

Harv, I save my carbon credits on my bike and by taking the train, I think a little bit of fluffy snow shouldn't be too much to ask for!

I:)skiing wrote

  On cold days, (below 15 F) the snow is very similar to powder.  

stop the nonsense

skimore wrote

On cold days, (below 15 F) the snow is very similar to skiing.

FIFY

Not sure I understand "stop the nonsense" or "FIFY"    Sorry.    


Most of you ski natural snow most of the time.   I am someone who skis machine made 95%+ of the time.    I can feel the difference between the two easily.   Just saying the new machines are much closer to the real stuff than the old ones.  

I agree, lots of cold air and lots of compressed air and you can get some really nice snow. I usually try to gauge it by how far my pole sinks in on the fresh stuff under the guns. If you can ever get more than 4 inches down it's probably really nice to ski on.

Harvey wrote

Adk Jeff wrote

I hate to say it but Vermont really has their shit together

I think this is awesome.

VT has been making serious hay with this on social media in the last two months as well they should.

This can only benefit all skiers including us IMO.

Don't get me wrong, as someone who occasionally skis in VT I think it's great too.  I'd just like to see a similar effort in NY.  It would be a win for NY ski areas and a win for those who ski in NY.  To the extent that VT makes serious hay with this and that results in VT stealing skier visits from NY, that's not such a great thing for NY skiers long term.

I was being a weenie.  I too ski under the HE guns all day long if it's 15 degrees. If you are skiing in 3 dimensions it is fun.

You can do it without earplugs too.  

Plus it's way cheaper. That has to mean either more snow, or less upward pressure on lift tickets.

There are plenty of guys like ml who like the ratnik ground guns the best.  I know the snowmakers do.  But I think that's because if they are going to be out there freezing they want it to pile up.

Skimore will never say uncle!

So I just really read the article.

$5 million in rebates, 15 participating resorts.  The three resorts highlighted bought 1400 guns which has to be a big portion of that. It's a huge investment in the future of skiing.

In NY Gore has done two big deals with serious power company money.  That first one got all the press, but the second deal had a lot of guns to up the totals.

If NY other mountains were doing as much as Gore the effect statewide would be big.  Hunter, Windham, Holiday Valley, Whiteface, central and western NY.  Remember these grants are matching funds so you have to have something.  Not an easy thing for Plattekill or Snow Ridge or some others.

If I recall right part of the Olympic deal was LP got crazy cheap electric off the hydro plants on the St Lawrence.  That is why everyone in LP heats with electric when it make no sense to do so elsewhere.  Did Whiteface also get the low electric rate forever?  If so it probably messes up the math to use more efficient guns.

I sometimes forget this is a NY website.  For perspective on the 15 degree post....we might get that cold 8-10 times all season.  It's rare.      The real genious of these guns is they blow "ok"  snow at 28 degrees, which is the tempature we are normally at.    

Also forgot to mention that these guns make their own air and as I understand it, drain their own hoses.   Much less work.  Air was also the issue with our mountain, we could only run as many guns as air capacity would allow.    5 years ago, we could only blow 1/4 of our mountain on a cold night.    3 years ago, we increased that to about 1/2 due to increased air, by  decreasing the number of guns connected to the pipes.  We are now 95% covered with the newer guns and as such have had to increased our water supply.  We can blow the entire mountain if they wish, all the while saving money in both electricity and labor.      

A side benefit is the guns alter their water/air mixutures independently with separate weather stations.  This is very important down south as we have significant inversions and our average cold temps hover around 30 degrees.  This allows  some guns to be pumping snow while others are shutting down.   Its really cool to watch the guns shut down one by one, automatically,  as the sun climbs and heats the hill.  We have a few shaded spots where those posted guns will be tossing snow an hour or more after all other guns have shut down.    

All that said, aint nothing like the real stuff.  My feet smile the second they hit it.    Just differenent in a great way.  

Hope NY ski area can continue adding to their inventory.    

Harvey wrote

If NY other mountains were doing as much as Gore the effect statewide would be big.  Hunter, Windham, Holiday Valley, Whiteface, central and western NY.  

That's what I meant by VT having their shit together on this.

Harvey wrote

In NY Gore has done two big deals with serious power company money.

One difference with the 2 Gore deals is that the power company provided the grant money.  A statewide effort would need to be through NYSERDA (an Authority, like ORDA).  That's what they did in VT, the rebates came from Efficiency Vermont, not directly from the power companies.

Harvey wrote

Remember these grants are matching funds so you have to have something.  Not an easy thing for Plattekill or Snow Ridge or some others.

That is a valid point.  The VT rebates represented 20-25% (my estimate) of the purchase price of the equipment. In the Gore deals, the grants represented 50% of the purchase price of the equipment, which is absolutely huge.  If grants/rebates were available comparable to the 50% that Gore got, a NY ski area would be crazy not to participate, no matter how tight cash was.

Coach Z wrote

If I recall right part of the Olympic deal was LP got crazy cheap electric off the hydro plants on the St Lawrence.  That is why everyone in LP heats with electric when it make no sense to do so elsewhere.  Did Whiteface also get the low electric rate forever?  If so it probably messes up the math to use more efficient guns.

Just the opposite Coach.  LP has a 28 megawatt allotment of cheap hydro.  When they go over that limit, they are forced to purchase more expensive electricity.  In the winter, when heating demand is high (most LP villagers heat with electricity) and WF is cranking snowmaking and lifts (WF uses as much as 5 megawatts of the 28), the limit is exceeded.   The additional cost is then passed on to ratepayers in the Village of LP Electric Department.

Harvey wrote

Skimore will never say uncle!

Because 2 ft of manmade still skis like 4"(at best) of sand. The only face shots you get are from skiing under the guns or skidding sideways. It does not resemble powder in any fashion

Here's what powder looks like

Cool to see some action shots.