Learning to Ski - kids and adult - NY or Poconos

Hello everyone,

I am somewhere between a type II and III skier, somewhat self-taught and somewhat professionally instructed.  I can link carved turns and go down black diamonds in normal (icy) Eastern conditions.  I also read a fair amount and have read LeMaster's "Ultimate Skiing" a few times - getting more out of the book each time.  I would like for my children to avoid my fate of picking up skiiing somewhat later in life (first time in college).  

---Anyway, my first question relates to kids' programs.  I have a three-year old son, and we live in Brooklyn (no, I am not a hipster).

  What ski schools/programs do folks recommend for the 4-6 range? Why? Keep in mind that my family is lucky enough to have access to lodging in the Poconos (which I realize isn't the best terrain).

I don't think I'll take my son this season for two reasons - (1) we have an 8-week old and (2) he is one of those (awesome) super high energy kids, and I am not sure he will focus for any period of time (he is just turning three in 2 days).  

Also, to give you more info, I am willing to go to the Catskills areas (I've been to Belleayre, and it is a great hidden gem; the posts here make me want to go to Plattekill!).  But, my parents recently retired to the Poconos, so Shawnee or Camelback would be ideal for teaching our kids because we'd have a place to overnight.  (My parents are 20 min from Shawnee and 45 from C).  One concern I have about Shawnee is that it looks like there is only one green from the top -- that worked out for me because I largely had the blacks and blues to myself, but I could see a youngster struggling with all the self-taught kids crashing on the sole green from the top of the "mountain".

---Second, the same question, but for teaching adults.  My wife was just starting to make parallel turns as an advanced novice or early intermediate (if there is such a class), but has gone skiing once in the past few years.  

Thanks for all your replies.  Hope this post isn't silly.  

Hi Dom,
Certainly not a silly question at all. I am a Gore homer so I can't comment on the programs in the poconos or the cats. I do have a couple of young kids who have gone through lessons and I've seen everything from a one on one private lesson that was great to a two hour group lesson where they pushed the kids down a 10 swatch of snow and then had hot chocolate and played in the snow (basically a two hour babysitting session). My advice would be to read up whatever you can find on each of the mountain websites you are considering and figure out what you options are. Then call the mountains on your short list to find out how much time the kids spend on snow, what the teaching approach is, how "serious" the program is, etc. We had our best experience putting our 2 1/2 and then 3 1/2 year old in private lessons at Gore. It was expensive, but well worth it. She gained the confidence she needed to be able to start skiing with me and then got into the season long program when she was 4 1/2. By the end of the program last year she could ski the glades and pretty much everything on the mountain except lies and rumor. This year she is really ripping and starting to get the parallel turning thing (vs. just steering).

It sounds like you have a good hookup in the poconos. If one of those mountains has a season long program I would highly recommend checking it out for the future. It gets you and your kids on the snow a lot more often.

As for the adult lessons I would try to find an all day clinic if you can. A 90 minute group lesson is also a good option, but if you do a whole day clinic it really helps you put a bunch of teaching to work and I feel like you make huge gains (assuming of course you have good instruction).

Hope this helps!

I really liked the program at Mt. Peter. They had some great instructors and a nice layout for tiny beginners. It's not a large hill, but the instructors there know how to get the most out of a few turns if you or your wife want to get a lesson. I think their staff numbers over 100, and they have so many people that started in the PSIA as high school kids that stick around year after year. It's pretty much a large family. Getting kids lessons is a great idea.

I have no input on PA having only been a couple times over the years, but my brother says Elk is a well run place, and that seems to be the consensus here as well.

Good luck, have fun.

I agree with Danzilla - some beginner classes, especially for the younger set, are more babysitting than anything else. That's what we found with my son at Okemo when he was 5.  He learned nothing and never made it off the magic carpet run in 3 days of lessons.  I saw a lot of playing in the snow whenever I went by.  My daughter, who was 7, had a much better experience with her group and was flying down the greens off of the chairlift on the first day.  We found that a couple of 2 hour privates worked better than a whole bunch of group lessons.  We did them at Whiteface and Gore and they really got the kids skiing.  I'm not sure I would invest in privates for a 3 year old though (although many mountains won't do group lessons for kids under 4).  Now we are in our 5th year of the full season Mountain Adventure program at Gore and the kids don't want to ski with us at all anymore.  My daughter remarked over Thanksgiving on our first day out, "When does Mountain Adventure start?  This is nice and all, but skiing with you all the time is getting boring."  

If you are day-tripping from the city, there is no better place to get the little ones on skis for the first time than Camp Gaw. They have a perfect little bunny hill and the instructors are great. For what you would pay for group lessons in Vermont, you can get privates at Camp Gaw. The rest of the bump isn't worth skiing, so bring your book and play lodge parent. After a morning of lessons, you can spend the afternoon tubing right next to the bunny hill. All just 35 minutes from the GWB.

in the pokey's Shawnee is a much better family fit, camelback is a zoo unless you can swing weekdays

Thanks so much - this is very helpful!  It sounds like your daughter is doing great!

And thanks to everyone else - I really appreciate the input.  

I noticed a few of you ski at Gore and Whiteface.  I am dying to get to either of them (though that probably won't happen this season).  

I have to say I stumbled onto this blog but I find it really helpful.  Thank you all for taking the time to comment.  

DomB wrote

And thanks to everyone else - I really appreciate the input.  

I noticed a few of you ski at Gore and Whiteface.  I am dying to get to either of them (though that probably won't happen this season).  

I have to say I stumbled onto this blog but I find it really helpful.  Thank you all for taking the time to comment.

Of course you saw the fine print, "New guy buys the beer", right?

With a 3 year old you must go the private lesson route that is too young for a group lesson

The attention span is nano short so even an hour at a time might be too much

A magic carpet is a must at that age.  I would not be to concerned about chairs and green runs from the top chances are you are not getting out of the learn to ski area the first day.  Don't set your expectations high the goal is to have a fun experience.  

I'd suggest searching the coach z blog posts  I did quite a few about starting young skiers off right and how to be a good ski parent.  Maybe Harv can post the Idexx to my blog posts here for you.  

Best advise I can give is do not over terrain your kid.  If the wedge has to get big as it gets stepper you are on too steep a run.  Those leash things are only meant for green runs.  Under no circumstances should they be used on a blue pitch.  You will mess your kid up doing that and I see it waaaaay too much.

At whiteface I'd recommend Lana and my wife Kate Z as good private instructors for this age

Traveling today but should be able to post Coach's link late this afternoon.

(via mobile)

Coach Z wrote

I'd suggest searching the coach z blog posts  I did quite a few about starting young skiers off right and how to be a good ski parent.  Maybe Harv can post the Idexx to my blog posts here for you.  

EDIT: Here is the link to all of Coach's Blog Posts:

http://nyskiblog.com/author/coachz/

The page you land on will show the last 3. Click "Older posts" at the bottom of the page to see more.

I am local to 3 (formerly 4) ski areas.  I usually ski at Creek when I ski locally.  I have also been to Mount Peter and Tuxedo Ridge.

Whiteface is hands down the best place for newbs to learn. Face has several slow running beginner's chairlifts and on very gradual slopes. Other mtns don't have this. The huge benefit of this is newbs can easily learn to ride a chair while they learn and more importantly they get to ride up the hill which gives their weak legs a rest. Therefore they get far more  " on the snow time " before their legs give out. Newbs legs typically give out way before they get enough runs in to learn anything UNLESS they get to ride a chairlift. This also gets you more bang for you buck as skiing is pricey.

Time on the snow, butt on the mtn is the best thing you can do for improvement for new skiers, period.

The best technique to quickly learn to ski is hands down the Snowballs Method ! Make them side slip ! Both sides and do it often, repeatedly and they will very quickly learn to use their inside AND outside edges together at the same time. This is the necessary goal, the technique they must master and snowplowing does not teach it. In fact snowplowing inhibits it. Sideslipping also teaches them how to STOP! An inability to stop is a major issue for all newbs especially as they move up the hill where the snowplow doesn't work for stopping. Also if they can sideslip well, as they move around the mtn and they get anywhere they're uncomfortable making turns they can just sideslip down. It works great.

This has been a PSA brought to you by Moi and est tres bien !

Can't wait to read what Coach Z and Mattchuck comments are on "The Snowballs Method."  A popular alternative technique is ride to the top of any lift with the aforementioned Newbie and pull an AMF like my idiot nephew did a few years ago with some of his college buds on the Newbie in their crew.  Took me over an hour to get the beat to a pulp Newbie down Sunway (he insisted on skiing down).  After visiting Patrol for band-aids, ice bags and an early lunch break, we conquered the Poma, slew the Sunway Double and called it a day.  The Newbie now skis several times a year, my idiot nephew not at all.  Go figure.

Ski you safely on the Hill.

Snowballs wrote

The best technique to quickly learn to ski is hands down the Snowballs Method ! Make them side slip ! Both sides and do it often, repeatedly and they will very quickly learn to use their inside AND outside edges together at the same time. This is the necessary goal, the technique they must master and snowplowing does not teach it. In fact snowplowing inhibits it. Sideslipping also teaches them how to STOP! An inability to stop is a major issue for all newbs especially as they move up the hill where the snowplow doesn't work for stopping. Also if they can sideslip well, as they move around the mtn and they get anywhere they're uncomfortable making turns they can just sideslip down. It works great.

This has been a PSA brought to you by Moi and est tres bien !

I think the snowballs method has some merit for adults and older kids but a kid younger than 7 is not going to be able to learn to slide slip effectively based on how their physical development works.

Young kids need to learn the wedge and how turn shape controls their speed.  Then they can start to narrow the wedge and get some matching.

I do fully agree mileage on low angle terrain is super important.

Lots of good input.  Here is my 2 cents.

You seem to have a nice set up where you can day trip to the local mountains and hit the Poconos.  Snoloco had some good info for the ski centers in your area. You also have the grandparents in the Poconos to help with the new baby and perhaps shuttle the 3 year old back to the house after his time on the hill. I am with Snoloco, stay away from the crowds at Mountain Creek and hit the smaller hills.

I would buy or lease skis for him.  An added sojourn through the rental center every time you want to go skiing is going to get old quick.

At this age, our kids were skiing a half day max and more often it was 1-2 hours (sometimes less!).  My husband would hit a local ski area with our 3 year old and spend more time getting to and fro than he did on the mountain skiing.  The key is to go early and often.  

Instruction is great and private lessons are the way to go.  BUT, the big thing is just getting him out there. If you have gear for him, it is much easier to pop over to a local ski area for an hour and take a couple of runs.  

Keep the m&ms handy and get the trail maps going.  Trail maps are a lot of shapes and colors and kids can really "read" them.
Let him plan the trails you will take.

If you can access a magic carpet, that is ideal, but the place we taught our kids did not have one, so it can be done with other lifts.

Don't let them get too hungry, cold or tired.  Try to anticipate these situations and don't push your skier.

Do not deprive yourself of the joy of skiing with a 3 year old.  It is so much fun.  Yes, get him some instruction, but make sure you get out there with him too.  

Enjoy!

Goreskimom wrote

I am with Snoloco, stay away from the crowds at Mountain Creek and hit the smaller hills.

I would buy or lease skis for him.  An added sojourn through the rental center every time you want to go skiing is going to get old quick.

I agree with everything here, but these two things stand out.  I learned to ski at 4 years old and I never rented at the mountain until I decided to try snowboarding when I was 12.  Except for this I have always had a seasonal rental from the ski shop in my town.  I still outgrow gear, so this makes sense.  I learned to ski at the now closed Hidden Valley and learned to snowboard at Mount Peter.  I can do both very well now, so I must have learned well too.

Mountain Creek is a great mountain, but it is not the best place for little kids to learn.  The crowds can certainly take away some of the fun.  Since they are beginners, the extra terrain is not a big factor.  The Pocono mountains may have the same problem.  I have only been to Shawnee and it was very crowded the day I went.  I don't know about Camelback though.

Thanks everyone - this is really helpful.  I just googled, and Mt. Peter is about 1hr 20, so pretty close.  

I am going to go back and read Coach Z's posts (that were reposted).  

Goreskimom - great point about paying attention to the little one's signals:  my son is awesome and full of energy, but when he gets tired, he can throw fits with the best of them.  He also gets easily distracted (though I am guessing any three-year-old does that).  

Regarding leasing or buying ski equipment, what do you do with at the end of the season if you buy it?  How long do skis for a three year old last?  Your comment is making me realize that I should at least consider leasing skis next season and doing a private lesson and then get him snow time.  

Oh, I agree Coach, they'll always start with snowplows. It has it's place and uses. Sideslipping gets them past it much, much quicker. I've taught 5 yr olds to do it. 2 weeks ago, a complete newb lady was stuck on the meadows at 'West. She kept falling and was completely terrified. So much so she couldn't even begin to make a turn. Fearing for her safety, I went over and soon had her sideslipping down to safety. She kept practicing it through out the day and her game changed markedly. Had I not intervened, she very well may have gotten hurt and/or had such a bad time and not skied again. She had absolutely no business being up there. Disaster was lurking. Side slipping saved the day.

When people snowplow and they get on more grade, they're afraid to turn. They're afraid they won't get all the way around the turn and then go shooting down the hill out of control and crash ( cuz they can't stop!). As they start a turn, you'll see them holding/clinging on to the upper ski's inside edge for dear life, dragging it cuz they're afraid. This keeps them from turning completely. When they're used to using inside/outside edge at the same time they progress past this much faster, with more confidence and move on quickly to stem christies or what ever they're called.

It works great. I also made them use this skill to practice stopping hockey style. Go forward on a grade and slid your tails out, across the fall line and stop using the inside/outside edges. This has true stopping power. Repeat it a lot and they soon learn to stop well.

If you can recall when you first started learning to ski, the biggest fear we all had was " HOW DO I FRIGGIN STOP?!!!". For some dumb azz reason, (yea I said it) people have never taught this most needed, all important, completely necessary skill to newbs. Snowplowing to a stop, on a grade for a newb is not practical. It does not work well.  They gain speed cuz they can't turn fully. So whoosh they go, down they fall, crap the pants. Then that's how they spend their ski days in various states of outright panic and crashing. The hardy tough it out and eventually learn to ski. Most timids quit.

When they master side slipping early, they get better much much faster. Before long at all, they're skiing, enjoying it much more and steadily improving.

They need a little bit of slope to practice on. The headwall on Jamboree is a good example. I would let mine snowplow around to that headwall, then call " Ski School " and sideslip down it, then move on. Kids wanna rip so you have to mix SS with going.

Sorry if this upsets the normal routine but it truly works and if you honestly think about it, it makes a lot of sense. A lot.

The wedge us not how you slow down it's how you turn.  You turn to slow down.  Big difference but a key point.  Read my post on the abc's of skiing either kids.