NTN

Okay, let's begin the off season gear talk early.  Harv was questioning what kind of bindings to put on a new pair of touring skis, and I'm running over the same questions in my mind.  The question is AT vs. Tele vs. NTN.  

I really enjoyed Ice climbing up in Alaska, and I really think my next backcountry setup should be easily able to accept crampons.  If only for the possibility of doing something like the Trap Dike, or if I ever get enough money to do the Haute Route trip that I've always dreamed about.  So, because I want a nice crampon fit, the duckbilled traditional Tele boot is just not going to cut it.  

So that leaves NTN and AT.  I like the being nice and solid in my bindings, and there's definitely a big part of me that says: You're on a super difficult, cliffed out run - therefore you want your heel locked down. It's safer. Plus I love Dynafit.  The bindings are just pure sex.  Light, strong (enough), and really smartly made. Something like this would be perfect for my new Liberty Variants.

But I love tele, and I love the tele turn.  Unfortunately, the NTN system (from what I've heard from the upper echelon of Tele teaching professionals) does not really work as well as I might like in terms of technically precise Telemark Turns (not something I care about too much in regular skiing, but a possible concern if I continue to climb the ladder of PSIA Tele).  

Luckily, there appears to be a new binding coming out that might be a little better suited to the way I ski (hoping to get a little more gradual, smooth lead change, instead of the automatic "heel up" that I hear the NTN gives you).    This looks like the kind of binding I could get into: The Rottefella NTN Freedom.  Read the whole thing - goes into the increased range of motion, better touring capability, and thankfully, the "dialed back" nature of the binding - not as "powerful", "torsionally rigid" or "quick to respond". To me, all that sounds like it's getting closer to the passive binding feel that I'm used to from my laid back G3 Targas.  

Okay, so I got the skis and bindings.  How about the boots.  Obviously, the NTN boot of choice is going to be Scarpa.  Why? Because Scarpa NTN boots have tech binding compatibility. So, if I ever want to try someone's skis (who have huge feet like me), or do something crazy like get a superlight touring setup with sexy dynafit bindings, the option is there (although I hear that the bellows of the Tele boot make the boot too flexy for true hardcore AT skiing . . . I'm not sure if that would affect me, though... I like a pretty good amount of flex in my alpine boots in general).

So, that's my thinking.  If anyone else wants to think by typing, add your thoughts here.

I just got lost in a maze of links for boots and bindings.  WTF is TTS?

I was actually pretty jazzed reading about the NTN Freedom, but comment boy was pretty harsh about the limitations and durability of the system. (I know how the hell does he know - he's never used it).

I'd pay for someone who could help me figure out my next move.  I bought a pair of skis so I'll have to SOMETHING about a binding.  Part of me wants to rent a pair of alpine skis just to see what the hell they are like. It might clear some things up for me.

Be interesting to hear what SBR has to say when he gets back from Cuba.

I realize I've added nothing. Carry on!

SBR has returned from sunny Cuba and is a little tired. After landing at 12:30 am, customs, car pick-up and a 2.5 hour drive home, it was a long night. Full TR to follow eventually, after I sort out the 748 pictures I took. Man, there would be some awesome BC skiing there, if they only got snow.

My short opinion is the the NT Freedom looks like the cat's pyjamas, assuming you want to tele. Light, solid and tour-friendly. What more do you need? Back in the day, telemark gear allowed skiers to travel "fast and light" but still make it down the hill. Modern tele gear is heavy and expensive, seemingly determined to defeat its own purpose. Not to mention the fact that the duckbill and cable just seem so, how do you say, 1930?  

If I were in Matt's boots I would be in the same conundrum. Gotta love the tele turn but the AT system makes so much more sense from a "form follows function" point of view. The only solution is to win the lottery and have four sets of gear: alpine, alpine with Dukes (or the new Salomon binding), tele and AT. Sadly, this is not an option for most of us.

A competitor for the Dynafit Plums 

I skied them all last winter and was very pleased

Phase one of my plan complete.

Scarpa TX Pro boots ordered . . . Mmmm . . . .

No NTN, but I'll ad to the boot stoke train. Just got these off ebay for $305, brand new. woot! Tech bindings, here I come.
I think I should slow down on the money spending, though. Considering I've spend $1200 just today. Seize the Carp.

Surprised NTN hasn't developed faster. It looks like a serious win.

tBatt wrote

Tech bindings, here I come.

Nice! Go get em'! I wish I just started out with Dynafits. But the price of entry for tech is expensive.

riverc0il wrote

Surprised NTN hasn't developed faster. It looks like a serious win.

I think a lot of people were waiting until the technology was around for a little while before jumping on the train (I know I was). But now that there are 4 binding options for tele, things are starting to gain momentum. Speaking of binding options, I'm looking at the NTN version of the Bulldog (now called the Spike NT):



Anybody try the bulldog before? (I've been digging up old ttips threads like a madman)

If all goes well, I'll have a bomber NTN tele setup (haven't decided on skis yet - Liberty Variants not available) and a lightweight AT setup (using some new old stock K2 Shuksans that I recently acquired).

Did you see Dostie's review of the latest TTS?

Caught my attention.  I've been holding off on migrating to NTN, and now maybe I won't.  

It would be cool to be able to use a Scarpa F1 for tele ...
Maybe.  

TD

I went with the Dynafit TLT speed radical, a nice low weight binding and matched that with the TLT5 Mountain boot. These are all mounted up on a pair of Surface life skis in hopes of snow and some back country skiing.

Telemark Dave wrote

Did you see Dostie's review of the latest TTS?

I did. Did you see this?



TTS looks like it has a lot of potential, especially with the new dynafit bindings coming out next year (and the assembly with Axl springs as seen above).

I already got the stuff I mentioned above, along with the Atomic Charter (100mm waisted) ski. Skied a hardpack day last Sunday, and I'm still dialing everything in. Review coming shortly.

Now I just have to decide on Dynafits, NTN Freedom, or TTS for my hard-snow ski setup. Hoping I can start getting some deals after the new year, but if not, I'll use my money for a trip out west and buy something fun next year.

Wow!  More and more ways to spend my $... Though there is now a direction to head ...

From day one of NTN, the engineer in me made me skeptical.. Too complex and or a solution for a problem that I didn't have or see... I have no issues to be honest with the old 75mm/duckbill norm - especially given the well thought out and simple bindings available currently.  I spend the majority of the season in Garmont Excursions (Franken-boot modded of course) paired with Targas on skis ranging from 75 to 95mm underfoot in all snow conditions - except groomers.  Switching to t-races and slightly more active bindings (Rotte cobras) on my rare lift served days is like going from any tele set up to locking down the heels as far as relative power transmission increase... Just like switching from track set SNS type systems to tele... It pays huge dividends in "feeling the snow" as J.C. Killy said...

Whatever.  I'm going to commit to a new setup for next season ... It's about time...

TD

Okay, here's my feelings on the NTN setup that I've been rocking:

I'm not fully satisfied.

The individual components of the system are great. I love the TX Pro boots - they're the most comfortable boots I've ever owned. I love walking in them, and they would fit crampons and dynafit fantastically (although I have yet to try either). The Burnt Mountain Spike NT bindings are awesome. Touring on them is fantastic. I've never had a free pivot binding before and I love it (even though it took some serious getting used to on kick turns). The Atomic Charter skis are light and playful. Float is great, and the rockered tips are nice in any kind of 3D snow (powder, corn, etc.).



Here are my problems:

1: Forgiveness. The lack of duckbill is most noticeable when trying to make normal, smooth, progressive tele turns. There is a "sweet spot", but it's very small compared to the sweet spot of my older tele boots (T-Races and Garmont Syner-Gs). I can hit it, and make nice turns, but I feel like I have to be very precise. I am of the opinion that equipment upgrades should make things easier, not harder. The energy I spend tensing my muscles and trying to perfectly hit the spot for smooth turns is tiring my legs out faster than they normally tire out on my other tele setups.

2. Carving. One of the selling points of NTN is the better hard snow carving power, and I'm not really getting it. Part of it, I'm sure, is the 100mm waisted, lightweight skis, but I can carve them decently when I ski alpine turns (although the ski is definitely a limiting factor). Also, by not choosing one of the Rottefella binding offerings, I'm missing out on the lift and leverage that those bindings offer (the Spike NTs are strong - I can't put my knee to the ski like I could with my G3 Targas - but they definitely don't seem to have the power that people claim the Rottefellas have). I plan on trying other setups at the Tele Demo day, so we'll see if I can resolve this issue with a different ski/binding combo.

3. Technique change. In talking about the setup with other tele skiers, it was suggested that you have to change technique to make the NTN boot work. Someone said that you have to "feather" the rear foot to get the ski to behave the way it's supposed to. This is annoying to me for a number of reasons. First, I always try to teach "two footed" skiing. I feel like a 50/50 weight distribution yields the most solid, bomber stance, and I don't like being told that I have to be easy on one of my feet, while driving the other one. Secondly, as most tele skiers know, the rear foot is really important. A strong trailing foot lets you survive in crud, deep pow, etc. that you would flail in if you were mostly on your lead foot. Even on groomers, a weaker rear foot means a squirrelly rear ski. I don't want to feather anything, I want to drive.

4. Aesthetics. I've been told that I don't look as smooth on these skis as I did on my other skis. This is completely unacceptable. What's the point of skiing tele if you don't look awesome? I might as well be skiing alpine!

More testing is still needed. I want to demo some Rotte stuff and take some video to see the difference in skiing style between this setup and my old setup. I also want to try the boots in a dynafit binding before I decide what to do with the NTN stuff. I want it to work. I really do (if only for the comfort of the boot). But if it's easier to ski better with a 75mm boot, why would I keep trying to futz around with a setup that's more difficult? Skiing is supposed to be fun, and if I'm not making solid, bomber turns, I'm not having as much fun.

One of my friends at Gore also went NTN this year.  He went for Rotte.  His comment to me was "I'm getting them dialed in, I'm keeping them, but can't recommend them".

mattchuck2 wrote

Okay, here's my feelings on the NTN setup that I've been rocking:

I'm not fully satisfied.

I'm actually glad to hear you say this because intuitively the NTN system just doesn't make sense to me as a direct replacement to the standard 75mm telemark boot/binding system.

mattchuck2 wrote

4. Aesthetics. I've been told that I don't look as smooth on these skis as I did on my other skis. This is completely unacceptable. What's the point of skiing tele if you don't look awesome? I might as well be skiing alpine!

It all comes down to this.

Today:

Fully-steezed park rat kid: "Are you telemarketing?"

Me, now jaded by that question: "Yes, I am telemarketing."

PRK: "Is it hard?"

Me: "No, actually, it's not that hard."

PRK: "You should go in the park!"

Me: oh, I have to get on the chair now...

Back in the day when I WAS a telemarketeer (carpet cleaning) to pay for school and a bad climbing habit, I had no idea I had it so good. I guess being 'steezed' would have improved my lot some. ;^)

My perspective of these bindings is probably a little different than most - I just learned telemark skiing last year, and decided to buy my first setup this year and chose NTN. I don't have a lot of other setups to compare it to, but I'm really enjoying it. It's much easier to get into and out of the skis, and the brake is great, especially at the top of the gondola. I also like that it is very stable when doing parallel turns. After 30+ years of alpine skiing, I like being able to fall back on what I know best when in tough conditions or when my legs get really tired. I have the Rottefella free ride bindings on K2 Brightside skis.

Like mattchuck, I did find an increase in the fatigue factor for a while, Each of my legs seemed to want to go in different directions, and I was alway fighting to keep one in control.. I had to go back and reread my how-to book to see what I might be doing wrong. Keeping my legs in a narrower stance and pressing down on my rear heel, which i think transfers more weight to the rear ski, seems to have helped a lot.  I definitely can ski the groomed terrain a lot harder now than with my old equipment. I'm still having trouble in the trees and in irregular moguls, but that's more due to my lack of skill than the equipment.

These bindings may not be for everyone, but they are a good fit for me.

poindexter wrote

Keeping my legs in a narrower stance and pressing down on my rear heel, which i think transfers more weight to the rear ski, seems to have helped a lot.

For me this is the whole game. If you can fully weight your rear leg, without using "muscle power" then you've arrived as a tele skier IMO.

When I'm skiing badly, there is no weight on my rear leg.

When I'm skiing so-so I've got the weight back but I'm using my leg muscle to "push down."

When I'm really skiing well, I just got my weight evenly split without a lot of extra effort.

Sorry for the drift.

Poindexter, it sounds like you don't have 7 or 10 75mm duckbill setups in your shed. Some of us old farts do. Don't get me wrong I'll never use most of them ever again, but somehow switching is hard.  Because you have an alpine background and you're a  really solid skier, it total makes sense. It's a related but different sport than duckbill tele.

Update on my progress:

The Burnt Mountain Spike NT is dead (they failed pretty catastrophically - but they were super easy to return and Louis was most helpful in getting my money back). So, I switched to the NTN Freeride.

Let me first say that the Freeride is an enormous upgrade. Power, Turning ability, Aesthetics, and general technology awesomeness are all there. Getting in and out is super easy, and the brakes actually work! (I had to bend the Spike Brakes, and they never really held the skis together the way these do - these are like an alpine binding!). I love them. All of the problems I mentioned above were drastically/completely resolved with this binding. Since I already loved my boots, that means I'm pretty happy with my setup. The lightweight Atomic Charter is now the weak point, but really only on hardpack, where the early rise tip chatters and is generally useless (obviously, the ski is much better in powder or corn, where the rockered tip actually functions).

So, my tele quiver is splitting in 2 directions. I just purchased some Rossignol BC 110 fishscaled thwacking skis (and some 3 pin bindings to use with them) and I've decided to just mount the Shuksans (which have almost identical dimensions to the Rossi's) with my old G3 Targas. I also ordered skins that will be used with both skis. I'll drive these skis with my old Syner-G's for now, but will be side/downgrading to a lighter weight, comfy boot like the Excursion or the T4 for comfort while hiking and thwacking around in the spring (or whenever conditions dictate a skinnier waist).

In the other direction, I'll be rocking the NTN setup at the resort, charging-style backcountry, and whenever I ski out west. The Atomic Charter setup will be my soft snow ski, and a new pair of 94mm waisted Liberty Morphics (warranty replacement) will be my mid-fat, general purpose, "harder snow" ski.

Everything is purchased except for the Excursions and the Freedom to mount on the Liberty's (I figure I'll buy those next year so I can start the year on a brand new setup). Things are starting to turn around, and I'm more excited now, knowing that I actually LIKE the skis I'm skiing on. Freedom!