NYS XCD

First let me give a little background on myself.  I've been skiing Nordic since I was about 10 years old, with various hiatuses here and there, and I started Alpine skiing when I was 13 or 14.  

I took a very long break from Alpine (stopped in my late teens) and started up again in my early 30's.  I've found it a bit challenging to pick up where I left off.  It seemed I could ski a lot better on the old style equipment, or at least I had the illusion I could... my technique is likely no better.  I spent a couple seasons on rental gear and tried to pick up 'carving'.  Well I will say I can do it pretty well on greens and most blue runs, but beyond that I just find I get going way too fast for my comfort on the skis, and I subconsciously start skidding.  So in essence I'm still looking for that balance between skids and carves that the best skiers seem to be able to do flawlessly.  OK - so maybe that gives some sense of where I'm at with Alpine skiing...

On to Nordic.  Like I say I've been doing that for longer and always found it a bit easier than Alpine, although descending has long been a challenge.  I considered myself pretty 'expert' with classic skis and could ski any terrain you might find at a groomed park or Nordic center.  My last set of XC skis were 210 or 215 (can't quite recall) and wax bases.  Living in Rochester and skiing locally I found the wax was a real pain because we'd have a lot of transitional days near 32°F... so I vowed I'd put the wax down for my next set.

Some how, and some way, I got interested in skiing in the woods.  I don't know what tripped me, it might have been the idea of skiing glades at Gore (which I've still yet to do) or the memory of trying to ski my old skinny XC skis on trails but somehow I came into the knowledge of Nordic Back Country... some people call it XCD - I think 'true' XCD is a bit different than what I think of but there are many aspects of it.

Basically what I found out is there is this whole range of skis, most waxless these days, and most being metal edged that are designed for skiing trails, mostly ungroomed.  I would compare this type of skiing more or less to XC mountain biking of days of old.  Lots of single track, ups and downs, grueling climbs, and sometimes scary descents.

At the time, I was having a lot of issues with my Alpine boots and started to get frustrated.  I decided to take a look into this Nordic sport more seriously...

One of my main resources since the start has been Dave Mann's site (I apologize for the propaganda, but it really is a great resource for something that is a bit obscure to most people).

http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/dirtbag.html

Armed with this information I decided what category I wanted to start in (what Dave calls Striding Stability) and what classes of skis and boots I should look into.  Some of this is a bit obsolete now because new models have come out but one can still group this stuff in the same categories.

I spent a lot of time testing as many metal edges skis and boots as I could.  I finally wound up with a Madshus Glittertind, in 200cm (my goal was ski less than or equal to that for maneuvering and turning on tighter trails) with 3 pin Voile Mountaineer bindings.  I did a lot of my testing on NNN bindings because that was what was available but I knew from my past Nordic skiing experience the differences... I started off skiing on pins and never quite really got the bug for the NNN.

I did a lot of skiing locally on hiking trails and decided to try to get my wife involved.  I had tried to get her into Alpine skiing a few years back and she hated it.  So I figured I might have better luck with this...

Well at first she hated it.  I assured her finding the right ski and boot would help (which it does) and just kept getting her out there.  Eventually she decided she did like it, except for going down scary hills (her definition of scary is questionable) and I found her a set of skis and boots that fit her needs.  She would up with E99 crowns, a similar ski to mine with the same bindings.  We both wound up using Alpina Alaska boots.

So armed with gear we started spending our time about 50/50 between backcountry trails and BREIA (a free groomed Nordic ski area near Boonville).  We'd also hit some local trails when the snow was down.

Now I think most of what we skied the past year could have been done on traditional XC gear, but it was certainly easier for both us.  I think the analogy here is I can right a hybrid bike on trails but it certainly isn't as pleasant as a real Mtn bike.

Anyway most of what I've skied in the BC has been a bit limited by what I think my wife will tolerate, and I'm fine with that.  She actually is pretty good, her biggest issue is the lump on her shoulders.  I can't blame her though only having what I will call a half season of real skiing under her belt.  I'm sure next year will be better.

I've convinced her to spend more time focusing on her downhill skills and I want to get her some plastic boots.  She tried some T4's last year from Garnet Hill and she did really well controlling herself on the descents.

I also decided to expand my quiver a bit and buy a fatter pair of skis, some Madshus Epochs.  To ski these I'm looking into some exo-skeleton leather boots and possibly a set of plastics.  I plan on letting my wife ski these on more difficult tours with plastic.  Eventually I will get another pair of something similar so we both have a mid fat set.  Right now I just want to see what this opens up for us.

So in short, or rather long, that has been our adventure in getting into BC Nordic.  I'm completely sold on it - and it's opened up my interest in BC Alpine (which I'm sure I'd be on my own with) which I may attempt in the future.

Lately I've been hanging around at Earn your Turns forum but they are more into Telemark and Alpine Touring.  Also it's more westerly focused.  It's nice to see a ski forum that is NY only.

I'm hoping my little post here will give a few more people the interest to give this unique form of skiing a try.  It seems to be gaining popularity.

Also I'm curious if Harvey bought himself a set of waxless BC Nordics to go with those T4s?

Hey MikeK, welcome to the forum. If you dig a round a bit, you will find that there is a lot of XCB BC stoke and discussion within this forum. Off the top of my head, some of the keeners are Darkside Shaman, Telemark Dave, MattChuck2, Harvey, me, Skimore (though he is an AT guy), the resident Nordic specialist Peter Minde and others.

If you haven't already, check out the Charger Love thread, or any of the Tales From the Hinterlands threads (2014, 2013, 2012, 2011). The TFTH threads are kind of a mixed bag but primarily XCD BC fun and frivolity. EDIT: I was just re-reading some of the TFTH and discovered this forgotten epiphany, which pretty much sums up my attitude towards XCD.

Your story certainly parallels the journey most of us have taken; moving beyond the groomed, be it alpine or nordic, just has an undeniable attraction. The more you do, the more you will want to learn to tele, and the more turn-oriented equipment you will want to acquire. The telemark turn is a fundamental nordic technique that is useful on any free-heel gear, be it skinny classic skis or behemoth fatties - take lessons!

MikeK wrote

   It's nice to see a ski forum that is NY only.

 

Damn spiffy!! NY friggin ROCKS!


Not sure about that whole skinny ski stuff tho

campgottagopee wrote

Not sure about that whole skinny ski stuff tho

Define 'skinny'.

That can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people.  To me, 40mm is skinny.

My current skis are 55mm in the waist, that is fat for fast kick and glide.  Horrible for deep powder.  How often do we REALLY have that in NY?  I guess I might ask to define 'powder'.

6-8" of fluff over a rock hard base would hardly pass for pow by some peoples definition...

Anyway my new skis are 68mm in the waist, with some more substantial sidecut.  A virtual powder ski by my standards!

MikeK wrote

campgottagopee wrote

Not sure about that whole skinny ski stuff tho

Define 'skinny'.

 

Just kidding around....I'm to lazy to XC ski, and the few times I've done it I had a hard time carrying all my beer!

Sick Bird Rider wrote

Hey MikeK, welcome to the forum. If you dig a round a bit, you will find that there is a lot of XCB BC stoke and discussion within this forum. Off the top of my head, some of the keeners are Darkside Shaman, Telemark Dave, MattChuck2, Harvey, me, Skimore (though he is an AT guy) and others.

If you haven't already, check out the Charger Love thread, or any of the Tales From the Hinterlands threads (2014, 2013, 2012, 2011). The TFTH threads are kind of a mixed bag but primarily XCD BC fun and frivolity. EDIT: I was just re-reading some of the TFTH and discovered this forgotten epiphany, which pretty much sums up my attitude towards XCD.

Your story certainly parallels the journey most of us have taken; moving beyond the groomed, be it alpine or nordic, just has an undeniable attraction. The more you do, the more you will want to learn to tele, and the more turn-oriented equipment you will want to acquire. The telemark turn is a fundamental nordic technique that is useful on any free-heel gear, be it skinny classic skis or behemoth fatties - take lessons!

I haven't done much digging in this forum yet.  I only found it yesterday.  The blog has been something I look at from time to time.

As far as telemark, I'm a bit torn on where to go with that.  I want to learn to make telemark turns where they are absolutely necessary.  I've been in those conditions but I still lack the skill to do them reliably.  I've take A lesson, and by A I mean one.  I can do them in the best of conditions on very shallow slopes.  Also my turning radius for a tele turn is approaching light year measurements so it is definitely something I need to work on.

I've been thoroughly discouraged to learn on light gear, but I really don't have much interest in investing or skiing on heavy resort level tele gear, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  I'd in fact rather be able to do them on long skis and floppy boots because that is where they'd be the most useful.

MikeK wrote

As far as telemark, I'm a bit torn on where to go with that.  I want to learn to make telemark turns where they are absolutely necessary.  I've been in those conditions but I still lack the skill to do them reliably.  I've take A lesson, and by A I mean one.  I can do them in the best of conditions on very shallow slopes.  Also my turning radius for a tele turn is approaching light year measurements so it is definitely something I need to work on.

I've been thoroughly discouraged to learn on light gear, but I really don't have much interest in investing or skiing on heavy resort level tele gear, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me.  I'd in fact rather be able to do them on long skis and floppy boots because that is where they'd be the most useful.

You should be learning the telemark turn on light gear - that's where the strength of the turn is, and that is where the roots of the sport are. After all, Sondre Norheim wasn't cranking short radius turns on four buckle plastic boots, NTN binding and metal-edged skis. Nope, he was on floppy leather boots and long skinny skis. So were Allan Bard, Paul Parker, Steve Barnett and all the pioneers of the tele-revival of the 80s and early 90s. Get out there and make long radius turns. Have fun. Go over the handlebars. Don't let anyone try to convince you that you need big boots, beefy bindings and wide skis to do a tele turn.

Great thread, I've been having a blast the last few years on my epochs/3 pins and soft boots. My goal is to keep knocking off routes in goodmans and goodwins books as my skills progress. What I've been doing is taking the xcd setup out for a bit of lift served every few weeks to work on my turns. Problem is I'm just good enough to get myself into some real trouble on some of the harder descents so next year I'm gonna make the effort to hit some of the Sunday night tele clinics at blue. Here's a few pics of this years bcXcd adventures...

Merck forest preserve


Great year for peeyay backcountry

Cool Gorgo.  

Also not NY but fun Tturns is basically perfect snow and conditions for light gear...

gorgonzola wrote

Great thread, I've been having a blast the last few years on my epochs/3 pins and soft boots. My goal is to keep knocking off routes in goodmans and goodwins books as my skills progress.

I also have Tony's book and plan on knocking off as many tours in there as I can in the future years.

There is some stuff in the ADKs that isn't outlined in his books but I've found enough information on the internet and from my summer excursions to know where it is and what it entails.

Between those two resources I have enough to keep me busy for years to come... and I'd like to sneak in a couple trips to Gore, and maybe Snow Ridge next year

I've also thought about taking my stuff to lift served but I've heard that skiing on hardpack can damage the scales (the bases on Madshus skis are ultra soft)... so I doubt I'll do that much.

Mike not sure where you are based but the Siamese Ponds Wilderness is LOADED with the kind of skiing you seem to like.

(via mobile)

Harvey wrote

Mike not sure where you are based but the Siamese Ponds Wilderness is LOADED with the kind of skiing you seem to like.

(via mobile)

Harvey,

I'm in Rochester but I frequent the Adirondacks about every other weekend throughout the year.  We go all over the park.

Gore is 4 hrs from my doorstep.





You might recognize that area.  The snow was thin but I skied the next day at Garnet Hill - they had a thin base.

Unfortunately this year the snow came late in that area, and I had already been tempted to ski over in the Western part of the park because I would do a day at BREIA and a day near Old Forge.

Next year I'm going to try to hit the west up early and head east later on.  I did it backwards this year and didn't make the best use of the good snow.

PS This is the map I usually refer to for that area:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/--J4YJ4p9cd0/UOb2DwbCv5I/AAAAAAAAF6Y/E7cKr8J7h-8/s1600/Backcountry%2Bski%2Btrails%2Bmap%2B13th%2BLake%2Bto%2BNorth%2BCreek%2B9-12%2B%25284%2529.jpg

as well as this one:

http://crosscountryskinewyork.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/2013-SBP-Trail-Map.jpg

Mike that first map was prepared by Steve Ovitt, the former Siamese ranger who now runs Wilderness Property Management.  He's also the guy responsible for the reopening of the Raymond Brook Trail. Awesome guy.  (He's helping me install XC/MTB trails on our land).

Harvey wrote

Mike that first map was prepared by Steve Ovitt, the former Siamese ranger who now runs Wilderness Property Management.  He's also the guy responsible for the reopening of the Raymond Brook Trail. Awesome guy.  (He's helping me install XC/MTB trails on our land).

I've yet to meet him but I like his work.  I really enjoy hiking and paddling in that area.  Hopefully next year I'll get to do some skiing back there on those trails.

I'm also glad to see Mtn bikes getting some love and private owners letting trails be built on their land.  Pretty cool!

cool, i used the first one when i ski'd the botheration pond loop last -oops, i mean 2 seasons :( ago. was hoping to do botheration>raymond brook this year but couldnt get weather/snow/schedule to align. next year!

thinking about botheration and/ or Raymond brook sunday - any conditions, info or interest out there?

Seen some reports: Botheration is skiing nicely.

gorgonzola wrote

thinking about botheration and/ or Raymond brook sunday - any conditions, info or interest out there?

Skied The Botheration loop on Monday and it was very good, and we have received 3-4" of fluff this week, so anywhere up in my area here will be highly recommended!!

bump for stoke, wishfull thinking/daydreaming on a 60d December day....
I did ski the botheration loop solo that sunday... first tracks in a fresh dusting cw until I met a couple skiing ccw about 1/2 way around, great morning!

anyway I wanna check this place out some time, aginst my religion to drive south to ski but this might be worth it

gorgonzola wrote

Great thread, I've been having a blast the last few years on my epochs/3 pins and soft boots. My goal is to keep knocking off routes in goodmans and goodwins books as my skills progress. What I've been doing is taking the xcd setup out for a bit of lift served every few weeks to work on my turns. Problem is I'm just good enough to get myself into some real trouble on some of the harder descents so next year I'm gonna make the effort to hit some of the Sunday night tele clinics at blue. Here's a few pics of this years bcXcd adventures...

Merck forest preserve


Great year for peeyay backcountry

I'm ready to go.

I have a bunch of new secret spots picked out too!  Even saved a couple vacation days if we got a big dump in Nov/Dec.