ORDA Appoints Pratt as permanent CEO

I don't really know. I guess I've met people on the ORDA board in passing, but I wouldn't say I "know" them. I think some might be on Twitter?

Here's the (non-updated) list:

http://www.orda.org/corporate/

Patrick Barrett, Chairperson
Andy Lack, Vice Chairperson
Joe Kelly, Second Vice Chairperson
Basil Seggos, Commissioner Department of Environmental Conservation
Rose Harvey, Commissioner New York State Office of Parks, Recreation & Historic Preservation
Howard Zemsky, Empire State Development Corporation
Cliff Donaldson, Jr.
Robert Flacke
John Parete
William Beaney
Jill Broderick
Art Lussi

DomB wrote

Hey Coach - I am biased because we patronize Belle, but my understanding is that one key goal of all the areas is to drive economics for the region.  Belle may operate at a loss, but it does bring people to that area of the Cats, who then stay in hotels and patronize restaurants (check on the Phoenecia diner on 28).  

So, I get your point about it being money losing, but (a) the mission statement implies that the goal is to drive tax dollar 'investments' into the area.  I am not judging that, just pointing it out; (b) C'mon, really?  Gore and WF do similar things.  Yes they make money some years, but what is the return on capital?  Your post kind of rubs me with you not wanting to waste taxpayer money (which I get), but maybe you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.  (c) re an offense to Laz - Plattekill is awesome, but Laz purchased the mountain out of bankruptcy knowing Belle is how many miles away and even then state run (though under DEC). So he was an informed purchaser, buying at a discount in a market process, knowing of a competitor with a theoretically unlimited pocket book.

Sorry to be annoying and confrontational.  Maybe too much coffee this morning.

Seriously lose millions on a ski area to support a Diner?
I've been to Bell and there is nothing to spend money on around there.  It's a fricking waste land.
Sell it off or force it to run at break even

WF and to a lessor extent Gore repay the state with greatly increased hotel and sales tax revenue.  Bellerye will never live up to that.  If it can't be sold off to a private enterprise the county should run it like the town runs McCualley.  Then the locals can fund it as they see fit which would not likely be at almost Million dollar loss on a good year.  

Bell peeps even think a Gondi is a stupid idea.

Coach Z wrote

DomB wrote

Hey Coach - I am biased because we patronize Belle, but my understanding is that one key goal of all the areas is to drive economics for the region.  Belle may operate at a loss, but it does bring people to that area of the Cats, who then stay in hotels and patronize restaurants (check on the Phoenecia diner on 28).  

So, I get your point about it being money losing, but (a) the mission statement implies that the goal is to drive tax dollar 'investments' into the area.  I am not judging that, just pointing it out; (b) C'mon, really?  Gore and WF do similar things.  Yes they make money some years, but what is the return on capital?  Your post kind of rubs me with you not wanting to waste taxpayer money (which I get), but maybe you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth.  (c) re an offense to Laz - Plattekill is awesome, but Laz purchased the mountain out of bankruptcy knowing Belle is how many miles away and even then state run (though under DEC). So he was an informed purchaser, buying at a discount in a market process, knowing of a competitor with a theoretically unlimited pocket book.

Sorry to be annoying and confrontational.  Maybe too much coffee this morning.

Seriously lose millions on a ski area to support a Diner?
I've been to Bell and there is nothing to spend money on around there.  It's a fricking waste land.
Sell it off or force it to run at break even

WF and to a lessor extent Gore repay the state with greatly increased hotel and sales tax revenue.  Bellerye will never live up to that.  If it can't be sold off to a private enterprise the county should run it like the town runs McCualley.  Then the locals can fund it as they see fit which would not likely be at almost Million dollar loss on a good year.  

Bell peeps even think a Gondi is a stupid idea.

I have to agree with Coach on this one..Bell supports a Dinner a Gas Station and a Ski Shop..That's about it.
To invest more money in this money loosing operation is kind of foolish. The Catskill ski market is pretty much saturated. I highly doubt the other areas will loose skiers because Bell improves their lifts or snowmaking..

I agree the gondola makes no sense.  Superchief and snowmaking are much more important.  (How old is the superchief?)

As much as anyone I see Laszlo's POV.  But I don't understand how you can say that Belleayre has no impact on the local economy.

Is skiing different from other types of spending do you advocating cutting any government sponsored projects that aren't revenue positive?  That would be most everything as far as I can tell.

WF and Gore create overnight stays and food spending.  Gore less than WF but I think a lot of Gore skiers stay in the LG area.

Nobody goes to Bell for a weekend much less longer.  I know I've tried for several races and had to stay far away simply because there is literally no place to stay.  If there was demand there would be businesses providing supply.  

Bellerye a black hole into which Orda and the state are throwing money with little chance of ever getting any return.  Cut the cord or put them on a budget.  Like Pratt said in his pesentation someday we will have a Gov that won't put up with losing money.  At that point These losses will hurt WF and Gore.  Need to fix this now.  I hope Pratt is the man to get it done.

Harv...How much do you spend in local businesses when you go to Platt/Bell.. I just buy a coffee on the way home .. I have never stayed over night nor do I indent to. I guess many people do the same, all the shuddered motels on 28 kind of prove that point..

When I go to Belle, I make sure I stop ahead of time to get snacks because there is nothing around there.  Occasionally I stop at that gas station/deli/convenience store/head shop/market store and get a wrap or a sandwich.  No other choices between belle and my turn for frost valley rd.  

This is not the smartest thing I've ever said, and it comes with zero research, but I don't mind the state throwing money at a mtn some of us love.  If that million a year loss didn't go to belle it is not like our taxes would go down.  The tax money would just go to another failed state project.  Private industry is the way to go.  However, we already have it and I like it the way it is.  I would only agree with shutting it down if the state had an epiphany and decided to drastically cut many other failed projects.    Or if a private company had a solid game plan.  I would hate to see it get sold and then the DEC take 10 years to approve building a hotel.  

I'm not saying I agree with publicly owned mountains.  If they do exist they should be super sensitive about competing with private tax paying businesses.

Back to Belle, who are the top five employers in Pine Hill or that part of Delaware County? Sincere question I have no idea.

When I go to Belle I don’t spend much in town, same as Whiteface.  But that is because I have a house near Gore where we spend all of our disposable income.  Anyone have a house do a rental in Delaware or Ulster?

Name a government program that is actually “in the black.”  My guess is that infrastructure would be the only thing. Roads, internet lines, etc.

Gov = Red.  Like it or not the job of government is collect money and spend it on the common good.  I’m not saying they are efficient, but that is what it is supposed to do.

Just want to say..I don't want Bell to go away..I realize Bell is loved by many, they just need to figure out a way to curb the losses...

Belle and Platty are in the zone from high population centers where I like my inlaws to live.
Far enough away they don't just stop by,but close enough,they don't have to spend the night.
My wife and I used to spend weekends at a B&B in Pine Hill , but they closed. Now on day trips I usually have breakfast at the  Phonecia diner and sometimes go to either Hickory or that really good place named after one of the high peaks. The name escapes me this morning even though I've eaten there numerous times. On another note who's  driven through  Fleischmanns recently? Man o man that town has changed. Just about all the old motels there are gone.
Anyway government can't seem to run any kind of business properly because the money train has no stops.
A gondola at Belle is crazy.

Belle is an unfortunately located ski area. If it was originally located right out of Pine Hill it could have had a vertical drop of between 1800 to 2400 feet depending on the layout. The 1800 would have been continuous right out of town. If it was located there maybe things would have been different. As of now there isn't much incentive for people coming in from the tri-state region and spending the night. If I were living in that area I wouldn't see much of a reason to ski there for day trips that much either, the ski terrain quality is much better at Plattekill not too much farther up the road.

The ski terrain at Belle isn't that interesting and the initial steep pitch off the top ends after 3 or 400 vertical feet. The upper mountain is only 800 verts and it's not terrible but all of the ski trails feel just like the last one you skied right next to it. It's strongest point imo has always been it's separated learning area which is about to lose it's character with this gondola.

I've never been in Pine Hill, I used to always drive right past the town but looking at pictures of the town during the summer it looks pretty nice. It seems like it could have been a cool place if the ski area rose right from town. If it had that and a resort that created an incentive to get people to stay the night then it might have been a successful operation but that's still a long shot. I think the key for success would have been creating that incentive but as it is it's not there so I agree, throwing this kind of money into it is wasteful and not just wasteful of tax dollars but I would add in natural resources as well. It's economically and environmentally unsustainable.

Belleayre is still suffering from the DEC hangover.

One thing that I constantly harp on is marketing. Without proper marketing, Belleayre will not fulfill its potential, just like Gore. They simply do not advertise Belleayre in the NYC metro area, just like Gore. There are some big projects hanging in the balance at Belleayre, upgrading the facilities,  the connection to Highmount, and the planned slopeside resort. If these items happen and ORDA allows Belleayre to properly advertise, Belleayre will be a cash cow.

As a reminder - Belleayre will never be sold or leased unless there is a NY constitutional amendment to change the existing situation.

What makes anyone think that the proposed Highmont resort hotel will be successful when literally even flea bag hotels can't stay in business in that area.  If there is a hotel would that make anyone want to spend the weekend or longer skiing there?  I'm bored silly in an hour or so Skiing there.  All the runs seem the same.  Short Pitch then run out.

While it might be true Bellerye could not be sold it could be given to another govt entity just like it was given to Orda.  Let the county run it as they have the vested interest.  

Actually Coach many of those flea bag motels have come back to life the last few years. The Emerson Resort seems have been very successful.

Thats not really because of Belleayre but because the Catskills in general has seen a large resurgence in year round popularity. This was an issue the Catskills had in general towards the late 90's through much of the 2000's. The spring and summer were slow, the businesses, many owned by families who had been there in the 1950's and 60's, hung up. The communities around Hunter and Windham weren't spared from this either.

Could a resort at Highmount do well? I really don't want it there, but one of a reasonable size (not the monster they were proposing) I think could do well, and draw visitors.

Its like what we talk about all the time, we are not Joe and Jane weekend skier with kids in tow that spend a god awful amount for single visits. Thats why Whiteface does so well, Lake Placid drives a lot of people to it that would not come otherwise.

But this is why Im for them doubling down on what they have. Massively increase snowmaking capacity and efficiency.

Coach Z wrote

What makes anyone think that the proposed Highmont resort hotel will be successful when literally even flea bag hotels can't stay in business in that area.  If there is a hotel would that make anyone want to spend the weekend or longer skiing there?  I'm bored silly in an hour or so Skiing there.  All the runs seem the same.  Short Pitch then run out.

While it might be true Bellerye could not be sold it could be given to another govt entity just like it was given to Orda.  Let the county run it as they have the vested interest.

You answered your own question - Who wants to stay in a flea bag hotel? It isn't 1975 anymore.

You being bored skiing at Belleayre is hardly a representation of the skiing public. If they market it right - NYC metro and even the Philly market - there are many people that would be happy to ski at Belleayre if there was a decent place to stay. I also think that there will be more visits at Plattekill if the resort gets built.

Build the hotel and they will come has not worked too well as a business model and just try getting financing with that as your plan is not going to fly

Its not my plan. And given the hotel and Belleayre have no fiscal tie, it doesn't really matter what happens. If Crossroad Ventures wants to build a hotel there on the former Highmount property, thats for them to decide, and seeing they have pursued it for well over 15 years they seem to want too despite continual legal set backs.

They are also the ones who built the Emerson Resort, so it would seem they have some gauge of the market.

I think X got something there.

Coach Z wrote

Build the hotel and they will come has not worked too well as a business model and just try getting financing with that as your plan is not going to fly

That sank my local hill as well as sucked the life right out of the place

On the Flip side , the hotel Hunter built seems to working out..But Hunter is a marketing machine..