ORDA Ordered to Enact Contract

There is some good conversation here and believe most are in agreement it sucks that ski areas find themselves importing labor to fill jobs.     That said, when that labor is imported the employees seem to do a relatively good job, for whatever reason.

At our mountain,  it seems the imported labor (El Salvador) is better treated than the local workers. My opinion without doing any investigation, just my impression from what I see 4 days a week.  Maybe its becuase they are paid less, so get special treatment?   I know the mountain pays a local lodge to keep them and they obvioulsy are getting paid, otherwise they would not come.    I wonder if local labor was offered similar housing, if more local labor would sign up to work even at the same pay.      I really wish the mountains would investigate and do some creative advertising or stay/pay packages to attract good local (not necessarily local, but US) employees.   I know the pay is not much, it may not even be mininim wage as in Pa, the laws dictate that minimum wages does not apply to "seasonal employees", politically correct term for the old term, migrant workers.   Pa has apple, and mushroom farms.    However if you add a seaon pass and free lessons, that increases the pay scale.

On another note, some have stated that we work for free, or very little pay along with a lift ticket or pass.    This is true for a lot of Eastern resorts.    I know some Western instructors and patrol who hate this work package.    I totally understand their concern.   If people will work for free or very low wages (giving a very good product), why would a mountain pay a living or "getting by" wage if they don't have to.     I am thinking about going to UT to teach during 3 busy weeks this season, kind of a working vacation that pays for itself.    However I have conflict as I know instructors who simply don't like us eastern imports for the same reason we all would like to discourage forign labor.  

A multifaceted problem for sure.        

I've always wondered how Vail Corp attracts employees out west while still offering a really cheap season pass. Why bother working for a pass, like many did a decade or two ago, when you can buy a full season pass to four or five mountains for about 650.

Benny Profane wrote

I've always wondered how Vail Corp attracts employees out west while still offering a really cheap season pass. Why bother working for a pass, like many did a decade or two ago, when you can buy a full season pass to four or five mountains for about 650.

I know many staff members at Whiteface, both paid and volunteer, that do it because they really like being part of the organization they work for. The family pass or vouchers, locker rooms and discounts are all nice, but not the driving force for a lot of these folks.

Yeah, the camaraderie of employees, the motivation to get to the mountain on days I would otherwise stay home, the chance to work on my skiing technique, being outside and having fun - there are a lot of reasons to work at the Mountain, even if money is horrible and the financial calculus gets worse every year.

Also some of the things that Whiteface has (locker room in the Lodge, discounts at the bar, old pay scale, etc.) would make working up there a lot more "employee friendly". Every year I ask myself what I want to do for the year to come, and the "buy a pass" route looks better and better...

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DackerDan wrote

DackerDan wrote

Other than a pass, I get no compensation from ORDA

Actually that was an inaccurate statement on my part, I don't get "a" pass, I get one for each member of my family.

Oh, just a little inaccurate statement that renders your entire point completely moot.

I feel sorry for those people who think that the mountain treats then so badly and believe the attitude of others is that
"people who work for Ski Areas should be happy to have jobs and they should just take whatever scraps they get.",
that attitude does not lend itself to good customer relations nor does it help inter-department relations.

Stop trying to start shit. That is your attitude, and if you read this thread back, it's easy to see that. Don't put your shitty, groveling attitude on me. I work hard and believe I deserve a fair compensation. You "put up signage" and "sit in a hut" and believe that you are fairly compensated (although, for some reason, you felt it was necessary to mislead everyone about the level of your compensation). That's fine, you feel how you feel, and I feel how I feel, but don't act like I'm not a tremendous employee who gives everything I've got when I'm doing my job. You don't know me or what I do, so don't talk trash about me. Do unto others, dickhead.

The sad fact is that nobody gets rich working at a ski resort, even management doesn’t make a lot of money.

Someone made $175,000 last year according to seethroughny.com. In fact he's made over $100,000 a year since 1997. So, I can say that certain levels of management have made over $1.5 million over the last 15 years.

You are losing this argument, your "facts" are bullshit, and you've crossed the line and are questioning my ability to do my job. Stop. Log off. You're done with this thread.

Holy shit, this conversation went from zero to full-on shitshow in a hurry!I don't understand what has people so worked up but ski forums sure are funny places.

Hmmm, once again NJ and I agree. What is the world coming to?

Noah John wrote

Holy shit, this conversation went from zero to full-on shitshow in a hurry!I don't understand what has people so worked up but ski forums sure are funny places.

Yeah.  Whoa!

Some redcoat v. bluecoat stuff going on here prolly too.

I'm sure Dan doesn't really mean he gets compensated strictly for that time sitting around waiting or doing grunt work or even that that is some big burden when he does.  I'm sure he also forgot to mention that he is a front line employee, riding lots of lifts and having many interactions with paying guests over the course of the season.  And also that patrol often deals with the most unhappy, most injured, most panic-ed, most irate, most ignorant, most confused skiers and riders on the mountain.  And that at any moment, he might be called away from whatever it was he was doing (whether having fun, laboring, or taking a nap) in order to assist someone in need, possibly gravely in need.

One of Gore's purposes (or ORDA's), as has been stated, was to provide employment for the local population. And as far as I can tell, more so than at most mountains, it does.  Gore generally does not attract the archetypical ski-bum type (if there ever really was such a thing).  It has been off their radar for the most part.  It collects the majority of it's employees from Saratoga --> Indian Lake and the surrounding areas. And I think it does pretty well. And there are people really committed to the place (full time, part time, volunteer), who do their jobs well regardless of compensation, and I don't know Matt, but I'm sure he is one.

In the last 15 years the skiable acreage and snowmaking capacity has increased by large margins.  Some new steep terrain, and lots and lots of glade cultivation have been added as well.  This is bringing the place onto people's radar (with the help of this blog!), helping it compete for hearts and minds with mountains in that state with the green plates.  But, as has been noted here and on various ski message boards, there are ways in which it compares poorly to mountains over there or out west.  And the ORDA pay scale is one of them. (at least from the perspective of one former employee)

Its a chicken and egg thing.  If people were better compensated, would the whole experience improve for everyone? How much more would you pay for a season pass or day ticket to provide a living wage for the employees?

edit: Whoa again!  that was long winded on my part.  I'll shut up now.

Gore, from what I can see, spends a lot of money on patrol. More than most "commercial" mountains I ski within 150 miles. I once popped my head into the top hut on a Tuesday, looking for a buddy who was a patrolman, and witnessed maybe 6 guys sitting around, mid day. And, there's a few other places they hang on that mountain, too. Maybe 50 people were actually skiing. Hey, that's cool, I like that I have so many watching my back, but, just sayin'. They spend a lot on patrol, in general.

Benny Profane wrote

Gore, from what I can see, spends a lot of money on patrol. More than most "commercial" mountains I ski within 150 miles. I once popped my head into the top hut on a Tuesday, looking for a buddy who was a patrolman, and witnessed maybe 6 guys sitting around, mid day. And, there's a few other places they hang on that mountain, too. Maybe 50 people were actually skiing. Hey, that's cool, I like that I have so many watching my back, but, just sayin'. They spend a lot on patrol, in general.

You do realize that not everybody on patrol is paid, don't you?

Noah John wrote

You do realize that not everybody on patrol is paid, don't you?

For sure, the vast majority are unpaid. Last season I was surprised to learn that some people I assumed where paid where volunteers. The reason I thought they were paid is because they’re there working hard all the time, way more than the 20 day minimum commitment volunteers have to make. Anyone who thinks ski patrol just sits around in a shack all day really doesn't know what he is talking about IMO. They work very hard.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Noah John wrote

You do realize that not everybody on patrol is paid, don't you?

For sure, the vast majority are unpaid. Last season I was surprised to learn that some people I assumed where paid where volunteers. The reason I thought they were paid is because they’re there working hard all the time, way more than the 20 day minimum commitment volunteers have to make. Anyone who thinks ski patrol just sits around in a shack all day really doesn't know what he is talking about IMO. They work very hard.

Spot on...I know a few SP at GP, not only are they good dudes but the bust their asses keeping the place as safe as possible for all we morons. I don't rhink we have more than one or two paid patrollers, the rest are volunteers. After blowing my knee out a couple years ago I have a new found respect for what they do. They gave me a great ride down the hill and tended to me like I needed open heart surgery right there and then.

Well, OK, show me the numbers.

Noah John wrote

Holy shit, this conversation went from zero to full-on shitshow in a hurry!I don't understand what has people so worked up but ski forums sure are funny places.

It must be that time of the year

Benny Profane wrote

Well, OK, show me the numbers.

Hmmm...not sure why you want numbers. Also I'm not comfortable posting hard numbers on an open forum. It's not a secret...just not my place to post them. However, I will post the percentage breakdown just to see what sweeping generalization based on limited observation Benny will post next.

Last season at WF:
31% were paid employees
69% were volunteers

Now what Benny?

I mean patrol.

Benny Profane wrote

I mean patrol.

I know...the percentages I posted are for ski patrol only.

Benny did you ever hear the old adage, keep your mouth shut and just let people think you are stupid and stop opening it up (or in this case posting it up) and proving it......

well now you have.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

Benny Profane wrote

I mean patrol.

I know...the percentages I posted are for ski patrol only.

So, you're telling me, that, on a Tuesday, 60% of patrol at Gore are volunteer. On a Tuesday. Not Saturday, not Sunday, not a holiday weekday. A normal, everyday, Tuesday.

Swear?