Plattekill Snowmaking: Next Steps?

I was talking to Laz this morning, and at one point the convo moved to snowmaking.  They have added some pipe every year for the last 19 years, except 2002 when the double was installed.

I was kind of surprised when he asked me: "what do you think should we do next?" I was flattered but also clueless.

He is at least considering doing the rest of Plunge.

I like the natural part of Plunge. I like Freefall natural. I like Ridge natural. Basically I am of no help in this convo.

Understand that some things are more possible than others.  That section of Plunge would be much easier (cheaper) to do than all of Ridge. Are there other subsections that could use it?

Love to hear opinions.

Personally I think he should consider increasing his overall air and water capacity (and water storage) rather then just keep installing more pipe and tower guns. I think increasing the ability to surge the snowmaking volume when it's really cold would be most useful.
 When the time comes, I would add to the green and blue terrain on the double chair side, and I would add ground guns that can be moved around (and make better snow) rather then permanent low-e tower guns or fans. I've realized recently I hate looking at towers and fans when they're not in use. I'd like to restore the illusion that I'm in a wild place when I'm skiing.

Harvey wrote

I like Ridge natural.

It's an easy blue, but Ridge Run has the best flow of any trail there -- don't touch it with snowmaking.

Brownski wrote

I would add ground guns that can be moved around (and make better snow) rather then permanent low-e tower guns or fans. I've realized recently I hate looking at towers and fans when they're not in use. I'd like to restore the illusion that I'm in a wild place when I'm skiing.

This^

Snowmaking is a necessary evil these days but imo it should be done as best as possible to retain a natural character. Skiing a trail lined with fences, snowmaking towers and whatever else reminds me of driving on a freeway through a city, that’s not my thing. Plattekills main selling point or most appreciated traits is the natural character of the place and it’s fall line trails that don’t feel forced into the mountain side.

Anyways, it looks like you guys are lining up another one, after this last base builder this could be about as good as it gets eh? I wish I could fly out for the next few days.

Labor is I believe the largest cost associated with running this hill.  Having guns that need to be moved constantly takes a lot of man hours.  It doesn't really jive with the business model.  While, I agree that towers aren't really what I want to see as I gaze up the mountain, it's a necessary evil if you want cost effective snow making.  I also agree that Ridge is one of my favorites on the mountain and a great natural snow trail; old school, cut to the contours of the mountain with interesting rolls, not flat straight down the fall line. However, a blue trail off the double that can be guaranteed to be open across most of the season is sorely needed, IMHO.

If he asked me, my first investment would be for increasing long-term water storage.  Second, would be pipe on Ridge while, hopefully, NOT widening the trail.  3rd would be investing in the land on the ridge and just leaving it as is for now with an eye toward long term sustainable development in line with what Laz has done the last 20+ years.  

   

Are any of the snow guns automated?  What I noticed at Massanutten in the past 4-5 years was how much more effective the snowmaking time was after they started either buying new automated snow guns or retrofitting old ones.  That's meant building a deeper base in Dec or Jan cold spells, which means better preservation during the inevitable Jan or Feb warm spells.

I see no reason to add snowmaking to black terrain that doesn't already have pipes.  But I'm not that familiar with Plattekill.  Just know that I had a grand time the Friday I spent there a few years ago.

I certainly understand the Human Resources aspect and I understand that Plattekill runs a lean crew by necessity but I think I'd rather it just stay the way it is and Lasz put any extra dollars in his pocket then to install more towers or any fans on the double chair side of the place. It's still pretty cool as it is.

I think Brownski is spot on. Start with what's most important. Pumping capacity.  Plattekill only has about 1000 GPM as of now  Belleayre can push 6K, and Hunter supposedly 11K. (Although I'm not sure they ever go full send anymore) This really comes down to having a larger water source. There's really no point in adding pumping capacity when you're just going to run out of water. That reservoir on the top of the saddle is going to cost a lot to line and finish, so I say focus on getting that done next.

If I had to chose a trail to add snowmaking to next, I would have to say either the rest of Plunge or Ridge Run. They've already begun both projects, so finish that before getting distracted on other trails. They're already 5 or 6 hydrants down Ridge. I really do think it would be sad to see Ridge Run lined with tower guns, and usually tower guns mean widening. No thank you. Gore has done a great job of hiding their snowmaking equipment on a lot of their trails by sliding the pipe back in the trees. It does mean more welding on the hillside and putting shorter pieces together, but it looks great. Air/water Ground guns work great. Low-e tower guns suck in the grand scheme of things. They typically make less snow, and they're very susceptible to totally losing your snow due to wind. This can also decrease the number of hours that you can actually make snow. Air/water guns can make a ton of snow, and if Plattekill took a similar approach to Belleayre, they could drag the guns in, blast the shit out of Ridge run once per season, and they're good to go.

If labor is an issue, I say automate the pump house and valve houses so you don't have to have people stationed there. that will make everything run more efficiently, and reduce the amount of scrambling around.  I can probably help them with this if it ever comes to that.

Didn't I say that:

If he asked me, my first investment would be for increasing long-term water storage.  Second, would be pipe on Ridge while, hopefully, NOT widening the trail.  3rd would be investing in the land on the ridge and just leaving it as is for now with an eye toward long term sustainable development in line with what Laz has done the last 20+ years.  

Another thing to consider is this is not really all up to Laszlo. Macker basically runs the show when it comes to snowmaking, and Laszlo is very lucky to have him. Mack has his way of doing things which usually entails widening the trail about the width of an excavator, putting pipe/hydrants right on the trail, and installing tower guns. This is partly because it's relatively easy and Mack is the only guy they can guarantee on being available to make snow. So if he ends up having to do all the work,(happens) he wants it to be a manageable task.

I never understood why they didn't hard hose certain sections of key trails that have tower guns. Then they can just light up a whole bank right from a valve house/box. Less labor.

Marcski wrote

Didn't I say that:

If he asked me, my first investment would be for increasing long-term water storage.  Second, would be pipe on Ridge while, hopefully, NOT widening the trail.  3rd would be investing in the land on the ridge and just leaving it as is for now with an eye toward long term sustainable development in line with what Laz has done the last 20+ years.

Yes, both you and Brownski said basically the same thing. Sounds like a very level headed plan to me.

James deluxe, I really don't see how adding snowmaking to Ridge as long as it didn't widen the trail would ruin it. It could still be left natural. I don't see how having dirt and rocks under the sparse snow we get these days is any better than having a solid base under the (hopefully) natural surface.

The cost of the pond is way beyond the cost of plumbing a trail.  To do that would require some kind of special financing that is outside of the normal drumbeat summer improvements.

Snoloco outed me when I asked the governator for a loan.

I think he just needs to shotcrete that "quarry" on top of Blockbuster and bingo, he has a snowmaking pond.

Then he should put tons of snowmaking on all of Blockbuster (both sides) and make it the Superstar of the Catskills. Do that thing in the spring where he opens Block for skiing and the rest of the mountain for MTB.

Just one guy's dreams.

When I said pond I meant the quarry.

I originally thought Plunge for Plattekill's Superstar as it gets less sun and is right under the lift.  Member that shti show?

Of course I remember.

I'd like to see some more trails actually get covered wall to wall before they spread themselves even thinner. More water is the only way to fix that.

Ethan Snow wrote

Of course I remember.

I'd like to see some more trails actually get covered wall to wall before they spread themselves even thinner. More water is the only way to fix that.

Again, yes, more water. Emphatically. And if the quarry is too big a project, I'd look for ways to enlarge the pond at the base. And, even if you can't increase storage, more pump and compressor capacity. And yes, even though I don't like all the fixed-in-place equipment, automate that stuff as much as possible so you can free up the guys who are up on the hill to maintain some ground guns