Search & Rescue operation on Marcy, Sunday 3/22

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There is always the rush to judgement in these cases. One of the things you learn in mountaineering and Avalanche training is that the biggest risk factor is poor judgement, even the experts suffer from it let alone all the arm chair experts.

Adk Jeff wrote

Incidents like this always seem to re-ignite the "charge for SAR" debate.  

would you expect to be billed by the fire department if your house was burning down?

Is that ^^ a reasonable analogy?

Cell phones fight Darwin these days.

Hitting the summit at 4pm?  I get itchy if I do that in the summer!  

I read in the reports that they were "well prepared", but I saw the kids were 11 and 7.  I don't know many 7 year olds that are up to Marcy in summer, let alone winter conditions.

gebbyfish wrote

I read in the reports that they were "well prepared", but I saw the kids were 11 and 7.  I don't know many 7 year olds that are up to Marcy in summer, let alone winter conditions.

I agree. I assume whoever used the words "well prepared" meant "wearing the right clothes and with the adequate type and amount of  gear and food you'd need assuming everything went as envisioned."

There is a huge gap between that and well prepared.

I give the lady credit.  She was out all night and kept her kids alive.   Couple of bad breaks and everyone of us could be in that situation.

That's great, but why take that risk with your 7 and 11 year old?  You may be the best hiker, climber, backpacker, etc., but why drag potential victims into situations beyond their abilities?

Not to start in with the "she should be billed for S&R" discussion, but I'd be interested to know the total cost for the response:
- 26 forest rangers
- Four environmental conservation officers
- State police special operations response team
- State police supervisory staff
- Heli evac

probably exceeds 25K  

There's a lot of attention being paid to kids' ages, 7 and 11.  Coincidentally, my kids are the same ages.  While Marcy in the winter is beyond my kids' current ability level (at least the 7 yr old), I don't doubt that there are kids that age for whom the trip is reasonable.  Each year at least several kids that age finish the 46, the youngest 46ers are 5 (there are several who finished at that age). I believe the youngest winter 46er is 10.  So this party is not automatically unprepared or negligent just due to the kids' ages.  

That said, based on the information available, they did a couple things wrong.  They left their packs at timberline when they made their summit push (a rookie mistake, never get separated from your pack).  They were on the summit a bit late (4pm), though we don't know their specific itinerary or what time they left the trailhead or how long it took them to get to the top.  Lastly, 3 is usually considered the minimum safe party size for a winter peak, but when 2 of the 3 are young kids there should probably be at least one other adult along.

I don't think those mistakes rise to the level of negligence or incompetence.  They are just mistakes or poor decisions, the kind of stuff that could happen to any party.  But it will be interesting to find out what the woman's and kids' experience levels are.  The DEC rangers did a great job on this operation, I'm glad it ended well.

I think there's a big difference between 7 and 10 years of age Jeff.  

Thank God none of the rescuers were hurt bringing them down!

ScottyJack wrote

probably exceeds 25K  

I wouldn't be surprised if it was double..
The Heli cost in excess of 1k per hour to run..

It is great that none of the people assisting in the rescue were hurt.  That said, they went to school, train and chose the job. I here way to often they are putting there lives at risk.  Ask any of them,  They choose to do so and what they encountered Sat night Sunday may have been uncomfortable but It was not very dangerous.  That and when the clock ticked to Sunday they were on double time.  Its all part of the job.  Pretty cool one IMO.  

No opinion on the 'make 'em pay' subject, but being the accounting geek.....

How would you peg the 'cost' of this?

I don't know much about Forest/Park Rangers and such.  Are they full time staff on salary?

If so, their salary is a sunk cost.  It's committed and paid, whether they rescue someone or not.  Same with the State Police probably.  If that is the case, the real cost the State incurs for the rescue, above and beyond what they would have paid Rangers and Troopers anyway, rescue or no, is the overtime, heli (fuel) charges, transportation charges (to med centers), probably some supplies.

If everyone on the rescue was an hourly/part time employee than whatever they paid them for any of the time could be considered related to the rescue.

Just an interesting aside on the cost subject....

gebbyfish wrote

I think there's a big difference between 7 and 10 years of age Jeff.  

I agree 100%, I can certainly see that difference in my own kids.  But there are exceptional kids as young as 7 who can and do climb mountains like Marcy and even become 46ers. What we don't know is whether these kids had that level of experience. My objection is to those who condemn the mother without knowing her experience level and that of the kids.  Maybe in fact they had no business being up there.  But maybe they did.

I've already gone on record in support of fining grossly unprepared hikers who need to be rescued.  But I'm not sure yet whether this party's mishaps constitute gross negligence/unpreparedness or just reflect poor decisions in a wild and unpredictable place.

JTG4eva! wrote

I don't know much about Forest/Park Rangers and such.  Are they full time staff on salary?
If so, their salary is a sunk cost.  It's committed and paid, whether they rescue someone or not.

Which is exactly why they need to bring along a 6-pack and large pizza if they ever have to chopper my ass off Marcy or the Trap Dike.

(Just kidding guys...)

Adk Jeff wrote

 My objection is to those who condemn the mother without knowing her experience level and that of the kids.  

Agree. There's more than one kid(probably not Sno ) who would kick an adults ass on that hike.

Some conjecture in this thread