Should NYS rebuild the Whiteface Memorial Hwy?

It is going to cost NYS $4.5M to repair the Memorial Hwy to the top of Whiteface.  Many skiers may not be aware that the Hwy which is open only in the summer is run by Orda and by WF's management.  It is going to cost $4.5M to repair the roadway and another $2.5M to repair the elevator at the top and other infastructure.

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news/x240468287/Whiteface-Veterans-Memorial-Highway-last-paved-in-1963

Here is a much better alternative that would be cheaper.  Build a Gondola from the top of Little WF up to the summit with a mid station near the top of the summit chair so it could be used during ski season.  The dream idea would be to allow skiing from the true summit into the slides but I think wind issues and limited snow would not make that happen.   All that summer traffic that goes up the Hwy would be diverted thru the ski area.  The remains of the Hwy could be used for Mt biking and walking traffic.  This would cost much less than $4.5M and would be much more environmentally friendly as it would prevent all that car / bus traffic up to the summit.  The elevator still would need to be repaired but the toll booth building would not be needed any more if the traffic is all sent thru the ski area saving even more money.

Alternatively you could build a gondola up from the toll booth but it would probably be more costly than one from Little WF.

The Hwy does not create enough income to justify it being rebuilt but it does bring tourist income into the area.  I think the gondola idea would be a much better investment than a road.  Why not spend that money on something that furthers Orda's overall business.

As of end of August the memorial highway earned over 500,000 dollars.

Building a gondola to the top of whiteface from little whiteface is the dumbest thing I've ever heard!

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2 more words - Bicknell's Thrush

how many gondola rides do you think people are going to pay for?  The highway makes very good money.  your idea is flawed on so many levels.  Do you really think constructing a gondola is going to be cheaper than fixing a road....REALLY?

Thanks for sharing this link.  At an ORDA meeting some time back, there was talk about paving the toll road.  It gets messy when you combine ORDA, DEC, the municipalities and so forth.

On a strictly selfish level, there are some nasty frost heaves on the road that you've got to watch out for on a bike and especially on roller skis, and the pavement is medium slow.

I can't see the state allowing the road to deteriorate to a pedestrian-only use.  They have to like the $$ the toll road generates:  no one is gonna pay to walk to the summit.  And they need to maintain the weather station.  I had no idea there was an elevator.  I just glanced at the annual report, I didn't see any break out of revenue from the toll road vs. Whiteface skiing.  But I'd have to dig deeper.

On a macro level, I don't think we can't keep ignoring our infrastructure, be it roads, ports, or water pipes.  

if it makes > 500k/yr, that's hardly the worst investment.

ml242 wrote

if it makes > 500k/yr, that's hardly the worst investment.

No it does not make $500k it brings in $500k in revenue.  After they pay for salaries, mait, etc etc. it may not actully make a profit.  the article in the paper said that it does not bring in enough to justify Orda paying to fix it.  I did not make that up.

It would cost $4.5M to rebuild the road.  A gondola from the top of LWF would not cost that much - does anyone recall what the CC gondi cost - i think it was around $2.5M.  We are not just talking about paving a small road this road needs a full drainage and rebuild all on steep grade up above 3000 feet with numrous switchbacks etc.  WF would get another Gondi out of the deal even if it only ran half the time it would be super nice to ride up a gondi to the summit January.  Since it primarly would be used in the summer you would not need anywhere the number of cars that the CC gondi has.  It would be much more green than thousands of cars and motorhomes driving up that road which usually means something around these parts and could help get it funded.  It would not require the extra employees needed at the toll road since the WF base is already staffed in the summer.

The fricking bird is an issue though but I would have to assume that the bird would also foul up construction efforts on the road as well.

Honestly I'm getting tired of every thing i post getting bashed.  I would think that this was something that real skiers could get behind. I rarely see anyone of the aussie bashers post any original ideas just bashing and stoking.

Interestingly, a cog railway was originally proposed for Whiteface before the idea for the highway took hold:
The Whiteface Mountain Cog Railway?

ausable skier wrote

Honestly I'm getting tired of every thing i post getting bashed.  I would think that this was something that real skiers could get behind. I rarely see anyone of the aussie bashers post any original ideas just bashing and stoking.

What do you mean by real skiers getting behind? Are you starting a movement here? Are you going to get it into the next UMP? This thread reminds me of a thread you'd see on AZ where someone pulls an idea from nowhere, then people discuss it like there is a possibility it could happen. Your idea is fantasy.

AS - There are many problems with putting a gondola to the top of WF:
1. You will not be able to ski down to it. You won't be able to ride the lift unless you go all the way to the bottom.
2. The top of WF is a winter nightmare. The lift will rarely run.
3. You need to cut a trail from the top. Considering WF is up against the trail mileage limits, what do you cut?
Black only? There wil be no demand for the lift.
4. What  about getting snowmaking all the way up there?Grooming?Running Snowmaking?
5. Stowe's HSQ was replaced for $6 million last year using the same basic line. This gondi would need an entirely new line.
6. As mentioned Bicknell's Thrush.
7. How would ORDA pay for this and continue to maintain it?
8. The fee for using the road is much cheaper than a ride on the gondola - this changes the finances until you get a handle on how much you can charge.
9.The road is a NYS road - NYS should pay for it. The fact that it already exists allows it to exist despite any enviromental issues.

I am sure there are many more problems.

ORDA is always short money and funding. This lift would require a huge chunk of funding and then require a huge chunk for on going maint., all for an underused, redundant lift.  

It is a cool idea but then reality strikes.

ausable skier wrote

Honestly I'm getting tired of every thing i post getting bashed.  I would think that this was something that real skiers could get behind.

So, a gondola to an area that already has WAY too many people in over their heads, which typically requires avy gear, which is rarely open, which used to be exclusively hike-to access to the farther slides, is what REAL skiers want?

Interesting.

I think some of us have different views of who "real skiers" are.

I like out of the box thinking.   Appreciate the idea.     People do love their cars.   Moving these people to a gondola would change the number of folks visiting.   Teach beginner lessons and see the number of folks who are there to ski.  That are afraid of lifts and heights.  
500k amazes me... would have never guessed that many visitors.   But based on salaries pensions and benefits and the number of workers I see up there.  I would agree they are loosing money.... which is a sad reality and case for change in a.other kind of forum.    Fix the road.  Put a debit card or easy pass toll and fire all the workers.... travel at your own risk.     Two workers running the elevator is circa 1900.    Maybe they are volunteers.   I stad corrected and apologize if so.   Awesome view...   should not.  Closed.  


State will pay.    Watch.

Just looked at the article - it was last paved it in 1963. Yikes! That's a pretty good life time for a road under any conditions.

Never been to the summit - no way to get there without an elevator?

My two favorite posts in this thread are the original fantasy by AS and the scientific dissection by X.

Gotta love Aussie throwin a bone to the econuts too.

The summit is awesome 360 view if mirror and lake placid up close and personal.   Yes Harv.  Easy hikeup from parking lot.  My 2 yo did it.     Elevator is for those that can't.   From what I recall it is bored out of solid granite.  Was built out of a challenge ala  the challenge to get to the moon.     Maybe BC the Pres was in a wheelchair and financed it wanting to get to the top.   Again I did not research this.  Going from memory.  

The workers that work toll booth are "borrowed" from other areas..they would still be employed.  Very minimal staffing.  There is a restaurant and a souvenir store at the top.  the highway for sure makes money, way more than a double gondola would make.  I highly doubt many people will pay for two gondola rides.  one is enough.  Real skiers actually dont care about having a gondola to the top because they already hike up there when conditions warrent.

^^^^ Right on Sister!  

I did not propose to have skiing from this Gondi higher than the current summit chair area with mid station.  The top would be siteseeing only.  They could charge more for it so that is a good thing for Orda.  The bird is an issue but it seems odd that the bird lovers would like road construction more than lift construction.

if X10003 is corrct then and the cost is much more than a road it doesn't work but if the state is willing to pay $5M for a way to the top and a Gondi is in that range then the skiers get an added bonus for money that would otherwise be spent on road work.  That its a more green way to do this is an added bonus that could help the state decide to do this. Aussie likes fresh air too.

This probably will never happen but why not at least think about and discuss other ways to do things than a road that has been there for like a 100 years.

ausable skier wrote

  The bird is an issue but it seems odd that the bird lovers would like road construction more than lift construction.

Hahah!  Dude, the road is already THERE.  There wouldn't be any addtional habitat destruction to simply repave it.

If they wanted to build a road up there now, from scratch, I'd be against it for all sorts of reasons.  But the road is there and there's a huge building up there.   The genie's out of the bottle.  Plus there's an elevator -  making this the only High Peak that's handicap accessible - which is pretty cool.

How would you maintain that building without a road?  Heli-flights at $10,000/hour?  There's a whole litany of reasons why your idea isn't practical.  Stop being so defensive.