Ski Instructors: What do you love about it?

I've known MC for several years and I sense he is drawn to instructing. Hope I'm not assuming to much, but it seems to me the money is a nice bonus but not the REASON he teaches.  This year he's hauling his butt down to Plattekill to teach.

Coach's comment about having a "great lesson with a couple of sevens" got me wondering and wanting to hear from instructors why they teach.

If it really is the money or the pass, let's hear it. If it's something else, that too.  Maybe the answers are basic, but I want to hear them.

Who teaches in addition to MC, Coach, I:)skiing...?

I started teaching at age 22 as a way to meet like minded avid skiers. I met my wife in an instructor training session.  At that point in life the free pass and other benefits were important as I otherwise would not have been able to afford skiing as much.

The training and certification process was definitely a benefit to improve my skiing and teaching.  You start teaching thinking you are pretty good and quickly realize how much you don't know. With technical understanding your on snow skiing improves greatly.  PSIA is a great value - you go to training clinics for about $150 including lifts for 2 days of skiing and training.  I always have a good time and learn new stuff while coming away skiing better.

28 years later I still do teach because I enjoy sharing my love of the sport with others.  Getting a high five from a lady from Mexico city that made her first turns, training a group of kids to carve, and making a difference to a couple of level 7 who skied much better after two hours with me are the things that stick in my mind from this year that make me keep doing it.  It seems Orda is intent on making this more of a job with less pay and less fun and that combined with my sons race schedule has cut back how much I teach lately.  Orda pays considerably under market rate for instructors so we have fewer and fewer staff every year - I make per hour now less than I did in 2000 at Killington.  Then they go and do stupid stuff like take away our bar discount. Its not about the money but the disrespect they show towards us concerning money leaves a worse and worse taste in my mouth every season.

The instructor pool as a whole is rapidly greying.  There is a big push to try to again attract young instructors. They seem to focus on high school and college age but I think the focus should be more on mid 20's which will become more lasting staff members.

I do plan on doing this full time when I retire from corporate life but probably not here.

I know nothing of ski teaching, but I'm pretty sure money is never the main reason anyone is drawn to teaching... yes, even those overpaid school teachers!

Coach Z wrote

It seems Orda is intent on making this more of a job with less pay and less fun and that combined with my sons race schedule has cut back how much I teach lately.  Orda pays considerably under market rate for instructors so we have fewer and fewer staff every year - I make per hour now less than I did in 2000 at Killington.  Then they go and do stupid stuff like take away our bar discount. Its not about the money but the disrespect they show towards us concerning money leaves a worse and worse taste in my mouth every season.

This helps clarify the meaning of those ORDA SUX stickers I recall seeing a few years back. Shame on them.

I think that had more to do with the union issues which instructors are not part of.  I feel for those that are actually trying to make a living working for Orda but I really cant say I understand the issues involved.  Instructing for me is really more of a professional hobby than something I do for a living.

Harvey wrote

I've known MC for several years and I sense he is drawn to instructing. Hope I'm not assuming to much, but it seems to me the money is a nice bonus but not the REASON he teaches.  This year he's hauling his butt down to Plattekill to teach.

If it really is the money or the pass, let's hear it. If it's something else, that too.  Maybe the answers are basic, but I want to hear them.

I first thought about teaching back in High School, but found out that it wouldn't work with my high school race team schedule. Then in college, I knew a girl who taught at Sugarloaf, but I never had the desire to do that (not when they were giving ASC -Sugarloaf, Sunday River, Sugarbush, Killington, Mount Snow, etc. -  passes away for $300).

Then when I got out of school and looked at the prices of season passes, along with the amount of money I was making at Target while looking for a real job, I decided to teach as an economic decision. Ever since I made that decision back in the day, I'm pretty sure that I've spent more money ski instructing than I've earned - gas, equipment, PSIA dues, beers, car problems from winter driving, PSIA exams, ski area food (even with discounts), PSIA events, meeting up with friends for food after skiing, etc. Luckily, we've had the lodging thing pretty dialed (with parental second houses near Gore and Whiteface), otherwise, there would be no way that I could afford it.

So, hopefully that establishes that I don't do it for the money. ORDA is particularly bad in the salary department, and if you want a little bit more appreciation for ski instructors, go to the SeeThroughNY site, type in your favorite instructor, and see how much he/she made last year. The highest paid instructors (who make between $6,000-$9,000 for the season, stack Private lessons on top of eachother, and can make $800 in a good weekend (Ace used to do this). But the instructors who teach line lessons or group lessons typically are lucky to earn $1,500-$3,000 a season with the new salary schedules. Again, nobody is doing it for the money.

There are a lot of things that I used to like about teaching that didn't apply anymore at Gore. There used to be 2 lineups a day (10:00 and 1:30), which was great for coming in, teaching lessons, and freeskiing (or getting out of there) if you didn't get an afternoon lesson. But now there are 6 or 7 lineups (8:30, 10, 10:30, 11, 12, 12:15, 1:30). Sure, all of these lineups don't apply to everyone everyday, but the added complexity is maddening. Also, they want you to sign up by 8:30 am anyway, so it's harder to roll in in the morning at your own pace (God help the instructors with kids).

The 25 day commitment is another thing that used to be better. It used to be: 25 days. It was great because I could choose the days that worked for me. Then it was: 25 days, 6 of them had to be holidays. Then it was: 25 days, 6 are holidays, you have to work 3 Saturdays and 3 Sundays in January, and 3 Saturday's and 3 Sundays in February, and at least 2 weekends in March. It might be worse now, for all I know. Logistically, it was just becoming a huge PITA to conform to all the rules.

Additionally, Gore started requiring a bunch of other tasks that didn't have much to do with Ski Instructing. I don't mind helping kids in classes put on gloves, but they wanted us to do Crowd Control on Sunway, Help random people with their boots in the rental shop, and set up fencing and stuff around the beginner area (all included in those great salaries I mentioned earlier). There were even more rules added: no freeskiing in instructor jackets, no discount in the bar, the pro room was moved down the access road, you have to park in freaking wevertown (slight exaggerations, but still). Many of my friends who started teaching around the same time I did got frustrated and left. I started to get mad at people for no reason, other than they were enforcing BS rules handed down to them from up high ("Let's bring back the GLM!!!"). I couldn't keep working at Gore. So if the question is "what do I love about teaching at Gore for ORDA?" The answer is: pretty much nothing.

Okay, with that out of the way, let me tell you what I like about teaching skiing in general: I like showing up to the mountain in the morning and planning out what I'm going to do and where I'm going to do it. I like thinking of new ways to explain things. I like light bulb moments when people make a huge advance from one simple fix. I like being at ski areas (and ski instructing gets me to the mountain on days that I might not go if I didn't have to work). I like talking to other instructors about their tricks. I like talking to random people and learning about their lives, their journeys. I like skiing in an instructor jacket, ripping around the mountain and people saying: "shit that guy is good, maybe I need a lesson". I like teaching kids because I don't have to get too technical and I get to adventure in the woods or play in the park. I like teaching adults who are technical and talking about camber profiles and swing weight and inclination vs. angulation. I like clinics. I like getting better and I like to hear ways to improve my skiing. I like to hear other people talk about skiing. I like to watch other people ski and I like to hear what people think about that skiing. I like drinking beer after skiing and talking about what I want to do with my life, what are our dreams for the future, where we're going to ski next, and what storms are coming up.

Coach is right. Skiing (and ski instructing) needs kids in their teens, 20s, and 30s. The places that employ ski instructors seem hell bent on forcing these people out of the business. For them, it's all business. They feel like they can just get any old person to teach kids how to ski. So instructors are expendable. Worse comes to worst, they can just process a few more H2B visas and get more instructors that way.

PSIA is valuable as an organization to train instructors, but its membership is declining as well. Young people just don't have the motivation to continue. Look at my list of things I like again. They're mostly intangibles. When it comes down to it, We're telling kids that they should work their asses off for a bunch of good feelings. Hard to motivate a workforce with that philosophy.

These comments explain why some choose to be lifties instead of instructors. Although the rules for lifties may not be much better.

Ive kicked around the idea of teaching when i retire, but it doesnt sound like such a good choice.

I appreciate the detailed info.

Tom

Tom

Don't let Matt or I discourage you.  At the right mt and ski school it can be so worth it.  I loved my time at Killington / Pico.  Orda being a state agency treats us as if we are plow drivers on the thruway but to me I still love teaching and sharing my love of the sport and I know I provide my guests a great lesson which is rewarding for me as a job well done.

I totally agree with both the positive and negatives Matt spelled out.

I have a house near gore. So the pros and cons presented by you and matt are very relevant. Very good inside info. Thanks.

Tom

Yeah, I can't say enough about the environment at Plattekill. I love teaching there.

It's a great job, but you need the right fit.

I was considering getting into instructing at Mountain Creek, but you have to be 18+ to get anything but kids programs (babysitting).  I know some people from school who did it at Mount Peter and all they got was babysitting.  I already have a pass there anyway, and I knew there would be many restrictions on what days you needed to work.  I ski Hunter every weekend, and wanted to continue with that rather than being at Mountain Creek all the time.

I don't get why they won't let you freeski in uniform.  What's the big deal, you didn't get a lesson, so you went off and skied on your own.  I guess some people would be pissed if they thought you were on the clock, but that's their problem and not the ski area's.  I did get taken out once by an employee at Mountain Creek, so maybe it's a problem with our pretty messed up legal system where insurance companies make all the safety rules.  They don't want someone to get taken out and hurt and then sue the ski area.

snoloco wrote

I don't get why they won't let you freeski in uniform...I did get taken out once by an employee at Mountain Creek...

That's the answer.  A lot of ski instructors who do only beginner lessons don't ski very well, and they don't want them showing bad skiing- or worse, dangerous behavior-that to the public.  I think some of them also believe taking the uniforms off protects them from worker's comp claims.  I'm not sure that's true, and luckily I never found out.

MM  

Its an insurance and workers comp issue mainly but also a PR issue as there are a lot of staff that ski at a level 7 level.  When I worked at Killington they solved that issue but only allowing those that are Level 3 Certified to ski in their uniforms.  You want to have some good skiers out skiing so that customers see them and say hey I want to ski with that guy.

Milo Maltbie wrote

snoloco wrote

I don't get why they won't let you freeski in uniform...I did get taken out once by an employee at Mountain Creek...

That's the answer.  A lot of ski instructors who do only beginner lessons don't ski very well, and they don't want them showing bad skiing- or worse, dangerous behavior-that to the public.  I think some of them also believe taking the uniforms off protects them from worker's comp claims.  I'm not sure that's true, and luckily I never found out.

MM

I only know why at Gore. About 11 years ago an instructor was practicing his turns on Hawkeye for his Level 3 exam and collided with a woman who sued Gore (aka the State) because he was wearing his instructor's jacket. Without that jacket there'd be no theory for suing the State. She lost based on (1) assumption of risk (don't ask me to explain here, but I can if you so wish) and (2) the instructor wasn't acting as an employee at the time. Bottom line - No ORDA jacket, no suit against the State. Remove or cover up the jacket and there's no deep pocket to sue.

For those inclined, here's the decision:

http://vertumnus.courts.state.ny.us/claims/search/display.html?terms=&url=/claims/html/2008-039-105.html

I considered being a ski instructor but my dick wasn't big enough.

I taught in the late 80's to get  chicks

chicks dig me

If you want to actually be skiing I wouldn't work an instructor job.

raisingarizona wrote

If you want to actually be skiing I wouldn't work an instructor job.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^

I taught for 5 years (CSIA level 2 - no big deal, and CSCF 1), ostensibly to get a cheap pass for my family.  Certainly wasn't for the $, and as RA said, it was not for the skiing.  Funny, my youngest son has followed my same skiing path, he started working as a parking lot attendant at the ski area when he was 13, moved into the rental shop for two seasons (waaaay warmer) and then a couple years ago got his Level 1 so he could spend more time skiing. Of course it's mostly team teaching/coaching children's programs and camps, but he must like it enough that he's continued this year while at University.. He spent his whole Xmas break (once the hill opened..) and is going to be working while he's home for reading week.. Again, to echo Coach and Mattchuck, it's certainly not for the money...  

Spongeworthy wrote

I only know why at Gore. About 11 years ago an instructor was practicing his turns on Hawkeye for his Level 3 exam and collided with a woman who sued Gore (aka the State) because he was wearing his instructor's jacket. Without that jacket there'd be no theory for suing the State. She lost based on (1) assumption of risk (don't ask me to explain here, but I can if you so wish) and (2) the instructor wasn't acting as an employee at the time. Bottom line - No ORDA jacket, no suit against the State. Remove or cover up the jacket and there's no deep pocket to sue.

I'm pretty sure you can sue an employee who is out of uniform, but you can't sue the ski area if you don't know he's an employee.
If you are training for a certification, and they base your pay on that certification, the law is that they need to pay you.  I was never paid for training, but if anyone was ever hurt training with me I would have made it a worker's comp case.  I'm sure I would have been fired for that, but I got kind of adamant about it after I overheard a ski school manager tell an injured instructor "tell them you weren't working and we'll take care of everything."   Worker's comp takes care of everything for 18 years.  
Wage workers and part-time workers are treated pretty sh!tty everywhere, and that includes ski instructors.

MM

Milo Maltbie wrote

I'm pretty sure you can sue an employee who is out of uniform, but you can't sue the ski area if you don't know he's an employee.

I guess I left out the aftermath of that lawsuit.

Instructors were told either to not wear their ORDA jackets or cover them with other garments if they weren't on the clock.