Skiing Terrain Beyond Your Ability

I haven't been to Whiteface with the Slides open since '98 when they had a ski patroller sitting there eying you up and down so he could determine whether, in his judgment, you looked like you were capable of handling them. Does Whiteface have an ominous sign, like the one at the entrance to The Rumor, warning people what lies in store?

Wisdom lies at the end of a path that starts with bad judgment. Too often, an individual's bad judgment can cut that path short. Seems that some of the people on the Slides this weekend used really bad judgment or none at all. I agree that you'll never improve if you don't push yourself, but you must have a realistic idea of your own limitations.

What's wrong with baby steps?

One problem here is the culture of eastern skiing led by the ski areas themselves. There is no reputable and consistent label or warning for terrain that is truly beyond the scope of 90% of skiers. Instead, we have a "relative to other mountains" trail rating system in which almost any intermediate with a basic parallel and side step can survive an open double diamond trail.

Relative trail rating systems are FINE and perhaps the best way. The problem is that terrain such as the Slides is even on the map at all. I bet Stowe would have a lot of problems on their hands if they "opened" the climbing gully and put stuff off the Chin "on the map" and rated them double diamond. You don't see hackers hiking out to Big Jay either.

While neither are nearly accessible as the Slides, by putting it on map and slapping a double diamond on them, Whiteface has effectively said "you can survive this if you can ski off the Summit Quad" because that is how most people will understand it. Especially considering that Slide 1 is merely a more topographically interesting version of Skyward with similar pitch. Folks can easily get a little high on the horse after surviving 1 & 2 but 3 and especially 4 up the ante considerably.

It is like a dare seeing that on the map to some people. I should know. A dozen years ago, I thought I was hot shit when I started skiing double diamonds. Ooooooooohh. But it really is what gets into the head of many skiers. You don't want to be left out of the party and you desperately want to be able to ski everything on the mountain even if your skills don't let you do it very well.

Perhaps putting something like The Slides on the map and plastering a double-diamond label on it is invitation for people to get in over their heads, but I don't think that means truly challenging terrain doesn't belong on a trail map-- even in the east.

Western ski areas are confined to the same relative trail rating system used in the east, and a double black diamond in the west can express an arguably broader range of difficulty.  There are the same overly confident skiers, some visiting fresh from their favorite eastern hill, who attempt terrain they aren't capable of skiing.  Yet, the trend has been for western areas to expand and put more extreme terrain on the map.  Surely they have situations where skiers get injured skiing this terrain, but the vast majority are humbled at most-- just like they were this weekend in the Slides.

Mod's Note: I thought this topic was important and different enough to separate out from the "Slides Etiquette" thread.

Darwinism folks. And that's that!

I know at the Loaf they usually post a patroller at the hiking entrance to the true summit. As you walk past him he'll make some comments about the status of what lies ahead, usually emphasizing things like "exceptionally thin cover", "very big bumps", or lots of ice/boulder---just serves a quick gut check to potential hikers and I'm sure more than a few have changed their minds as a result.

What'd be interesting as well is how they've handled their expansion over onto Burnt Mountain this year and how they've kept some of the hackers out. You could get in serious trouble out there--big area, lots of trees/cliffs, not a lot of traffic, no cleared trails, and now it's on the map!

Darkside Shaman wrote

Darwinism folks. And that's that!

Until someone "Darwins into you" - a bad decision by a fool in your general vicinity can all of a sudden involve you.

earlier this year i took my 7 year old into the slides and the patroller at the enterance questioned me on his ability.  He is very strong 7 yr old skier you can rip anything on the mt including the woods.  That was his first time in the slides as i had been waiting until the conditions were good and i felt he was way more than ready to handle it.  There are a small handful of local kids in this boat and another patroller knew him and vouched for him.  that said i would be very skeptical of any kid under 12 that did not have a Cloudsplitter or Nysef season pass going in there.  I did not see Patrol actively managing who was entering the slides this weekend and think that needs to be beeffed up given the low level of some folks in there

I saw a kid doing wedge turns in slide 1 on Sunday.  Those parents must have been on drugs.  I have lots of respect for the slides and have had a few pucker moments myself in there.  its not a place to learn because its lessons can be very hard. if that wedge turning kids on sunday would have gotten seriously hurt the slides would have been shut down for the rescue plus it would jepordize my sons chances of skiing the slides in the future.

I took my 9-year old son to Slide 2 on Saturday. He is a Gore's Mountain Adventure All season program graduate for 2 years, skiing all over mountain. He didn't have problem skiing slide, he didn't like sidestepping up traverse though, so we just did one run.

I question though the patrol's decision to shut down slides due to injured skier rescue.

What is a good trail at Gore to screen yourself for the Slides?  I have never been at WF when they are open.  What do I need to be able to ski at Gore to be comfortable?

Ha ha, anyone that "darwins" into me is going to be one sore sucka!

Goreskimom wrote

What is a good trail at Gore to screen yourself for the Slides?  I have never been at WF when they are open.  What do I need to be able to ski at Gore to be comfortable?

GSM ... IMO there's nothing on the map at Gore that can really provide a guide for this question.  If you can handle Skyward without a problem (and from what I've seen I think you can)... then I think you should be able to handle most of Slide One. The slides get progressively tougher as you go (1,2,3,4) so proceeding in that order makes a lot of sense.  

Personally I think the slide run outs, (and Slide Out!) are the toughest parts that I skied on Saturday. In many cases you are dealing with a single line choice.  What's the steepest, single line, off-the-map shot at Gore? Find it, ski it, and then ask yourself ... could I handle it if it was steeper and much longer?

Others with more experience ... is that a fair assessment?

Harvey44 wrote

If you can handle Skyward without a problem (and from what I've seen I think you can)... then I think you should be able to handle most of Slide One.

Others with more experience ... is that a fair assessment?

I think that being able to ski Skyward without a problem is a little too simplistic, even for Slide 1. For the top of it, yes, but once you reach the waterfall, it's a different story. Skyward is still a cleared trail with PLENTY of margin for error ... in the slides, there is generally little or no margin for error.

I think a better way to judge is to ask yourself whether you can ski almost any glade without a problem. Even Slide 1 will require some VERY quick turns in narrow spaces with the possibility of a two to three foot drop thrown in as well. If you don't think that poses a problem for you, then you could probably ski Slide 1.

Just my opinion.

i don't think skyward is an adequete measure for the slides - its much too wide and groommed to compare.  you ulitmately need to route find thru a narrow spot in the bottom of the slides 1-4 and the top of 3.  it also is amazing how different the snow can be from skyward since its all natural and has never seen a groomer.  On sunday the snow was very variable with soft crud, corn, piles of goo, and softening waterfall ice.  you need to fully own a extention hop turn and a retraction turn and apply them at will

i think that cloudsplitter glades or empire is a better measure as it is how you respond to a tight and steep spot that matters.  to compare it to Gore i would think that the tightest steep trees or the stuff under the summit chair might be the most comparable

ultimately there is nothing like the slides in the east except at sugarloaf.  its more comparable to chutes out west

Goreskimom wrote

What is a good trail at Gore to screen yourself for the Slides?

Cleavage, Flying Squirrel, Snoopy Chute?

Regarding the closure due to injury, patrol indicated that 1) the resources were tied up with the rescue and 2) should another rescue be needed, no resources nor sled was available for potential assistance (I get it).

On the similar or warm-up trail at Gore to prepare, other than Double Barrel, would have to be some of the unmarked challenges (if they were to exist that is).

Spongeworthy wrote

Flying Squirrel, Snoopy Chute?

Exactly what I was going to say.

Skiing some of steeper glades at Gore with confidence would be sign for Slides preparedness.

I skied Slides first time on April 14, 2007 and had no issues. Before same year I skied glade for the first time (10th mountain division glade) and really sucked at it.

Denis.N wrote

Skiing some of steeper glades at Gore with confidence would be sign for Slides preparedness.

I skied Slides first time on April 14, 2007 and had no issues. Before same year I skied glade for the first time (10th mountain division glade) and really sucked at it.

a lot of people get confused about the Cloudsplitter glades and the 10t MT Div Glades

the CC glades are entered from Approach, Empire or Upper Northway and have a steep pitch and are pretty tight depending on which glade you ski - there are actully 4 separate lines in these glades and they are named with a small sign on a tree at the top.  Victors is closest to Northway and is the most open.  The ones closer to Empire are much tighter.

The 10th MT Div glades are the glades that you enter just above the intersection of Upper and lower northway.  These follow the blue pitch of lower northway and are much more open.  The Cloudsplitter Glades funnel into the 10th div glades at various points

in my opinion to ski the slides you should feel comfortable in the tighter sections of the Cloudsplitter Glades

ausable skier wrote

i think that cloudsplitter glades or empire is a better measure as it is how you respond to a tight and steep spot that matters.

I concurr.