Slides Open

x10003q wrote

If you are carrying a beacon you should have the probe and shovel.

I agree.  

Slide access @ WF is evolving and the beacon/avy gear policy is a big part of it.

The existing access makes it easy for inexperienced and/or delusional skiers/riders to enter the slides.  This in turn increases the possibility of someone getting hurt.

People need to get behind an access policy that works best for mountain management and the skiing public.   That means some type of compromise.  Slide terrain is ungroomed, unmarked and often burly.  Rescues are extremely demanding and put patrol at risk.  In addition, once someone is hurt the slides shut down for the rest of us.

As Pant’s stated early, having a zone accessible only via a beacon is not unique.  Bridger Bowl, Mt has a lift service area that requires beacons.  When we were there it held the best snow on the mtn.  

The next step for WF would be moving the gate down Riva Ridge to the old slide access (locally known as the Outlaw Trail).  This would increase the distance and vertical climb.  Signage or patrol should be placed at this gate to indicate the physical effort required.  This will help deter people from entering who are not physically fit or have the experience to safely ride slide terrain.  

It’s not Disney out there.  

I think they should just make the hike higher so you drop in from the TOP!

x10003q wrote

I understand the need to limit who goes into the Slides right now and I do not have a better plan, but taking a lifesaving tool like a beacon and reducing it to an "expert" accessory is not smart. If you are carrying a beacon you should have the probe and shovel.

I've been cat skiing many times and while they require the customers to wear beacons only the guides carried shovels and probes.  I agree with Pants that this is the norm at many places out west and Scotty made many very good points for the reasons behind the rule.

Technically yesterday (and today) as well was posted as beacon, shovel, and probe and with fresh snow Monday I can totally see the reason for that.  Today the snow was cut up so the need for the shovel and probe was eliminated.  I asked a patroller on top of the Gondi they said the shovel was required but at the slide entry they only required a beacon.

I disagree with making the hike longer.  That will penalize everyone in the form of less roundtrips in a day.  I remember how it was back in 2001 with the longer hike that went up father.  It meant that you had to take your skis off and carry them and it was a post hole nightmare at times.  As an instructor you can tell a lot about a skier in how they side step that relates to how they ski.

Great facts have been posted here. My 2 cents is I've skied the slides maybe 9 times since they opened them. To this day I know I can make it down, the hike up might be a little harder cuz I'm a little older but I would make it. I love that terrain. The fact that I need $300 bucks of equipment I'll probbly never use makes me sad....No more fun for me.
As a side note Who rents Beacons.  I'm no fool.....

There is shop(s) in town that do rent beacons, possibly the mountaineer.

I agree with making the hike longer, earn it!

Didn't make it to the hill yesterday, had to show some houses.  Leaving the house shortly to head to WF

Coach Z wrote

As an instructor you can tell a lot about a skier in how they side step that relates to how they ski.

One word ... LIABILITY.

If a ski patroller, or other mountain employee or representative, "qualifies" you to ski the Slides based on an "ability" test, guess who just assumed a whole bunch of liability!

I'm not a lawyer, but it would seem fairly logical, that the beacon requirement, in addition to helping weed out "the masses", would also be very helpful in shifting all liability and responsibility to the individual, and away from the mountain.

It would be pretty easy to argue that if someone was carrying a beacon, they should have an awareness of the dangers and risks of back-country skiing, versus the case where someone could argue that the mountain opened the Slides to everyone, and someone went in not really understanding how difficult the terrain was.

ScottyJack wrote

And you can tell a lot about people from their posts on a ski forum.  

The beacon concept evolved from patrol standing at the gate asking questions to assess someone's ability.  Talk about a PR nightmare...  How would you feel skimore if someone said you didn't side slip that right, no access for you.  

The reality is some ski terrain is best and safer when kept limited.  Whiteface slides fit that bill.  So get a beacon, shut up and ski!

I for one am super stoked that WF management and patrol opened the slides on Jan 7!    I am 100% for the beacon policy.

And the other guy talking smack about a local ripper hucking off the ledge on 2B,  I was blown away that pic generated such a negative comment.  That was an awesome huck on the perfect day for it.

TRUTH

ScottyJack wrote

Bridger Bowl, Mt has a lift service area that requires beacons.  When we were there it held the best snow on the mtn.  

Last time I was at Bridget 10 years ago the ridge was the only place you needed a beacon and there was a surface lift for Patrol use. Others hiked. It would be great if that area is now loft served.

IMHO If you are going to do much BC in the Daks, Whites or out west spring for the right gear and take a course.

Coach Z wrote

  I agree with Pants that this is the norm at many places out west

Yes, but it is for avalanche concerns. Not to weed out crappy skiers as its being stated here

Agree w Coach Z on the sidestep issue 100%. I've had to wait several times for gapers struggling to side step up the traverse to the slides and it very obvious that they have no business skiing them.

Face4Me wrote

One word ... LIABILITY.

If a ski patroller, or other mountain employee or representative, "qualifies" you to ski the Slides based on an "ability" test, guess who just assumed a whole bunch of liability!

How are they anymore or less liable than qualifying them with a beacon in their pocket?

I can think of a few other places in the east that have something as equally hard to get down where they don't feel the need to save people from themselves

skimore wrote

How are they anymore or less liable than qualifying them with a beacon in their pocket?

In the one case, it's a judgement call. Someone is assessing your ability and making a decision based on their judgement ... it's subjective. To be clear, I was simply addressing the idea of using a "sidestep test" to allow access.

In the second case, there's no judgement ... you either have the beacon or you don't.

skimore wrote

I can think of a few other places in the east that have something as equally hard to get down where they don't feel the need to save people from themselves

In a way, I agree with this point ... I think it's fair to suggest that they should never OPEN the Slides ... They should always be open. You want to go in ... go right ahead, but you're on your own. Any of the other back-country slides in the ADK's work that way ... there's no one there to say a slide is open or closed.

The problem is, since the Slides at Whiteface are accessible from a chairlift, and you don't have to "earn" it by hiking up, there will be too many people who will "give it a try". That puts too many others at risk.

Simple question for you ... this is just a question of probability or likelihood ... it's understood that there are no guarantees.

Do you believe that someone who is willing to hike or skin up a mountain in the back-country, without all of the benefits of skiing at a maintained ski area, is MORE likely to be able to handle that back-country skiing than someone who has only skied on maintained ski trails?

Face4Me wrote

Do you believe that someone who is willing to hike or skin up a mountain in the back-country, without all of the benefits of skiing at a maintained ski area, is MORE likely to be able to handle that back-country skiing than someone who has only skied on maintained ski trails?

Yes, but having a beacon doesn't equate to this

Coach - Did everyone have to hike to the top to ski the slides to ski them in the previous setup? I would prefer the added weeding out - the hike now is pretty short - AND the best steepest stuff is above your head when you go traverse out now. That area also must be seriously verboten as things are, because any skier coming down off the top is more likely to drop an avy on skiers traversing, and that's unfortunate.

skimore wrote

Yes, but having a beacon doesn't equate to this

Agreed ... it doesn't equate, but it goes back to the simple premise, that if someone has a beacon, they are more LIKELY to understand what they're getting into.

Simply probability and likelihood ... nothing more.

Just to put an end to this thread for me, look at this post.

http://nyskiblog.com/forums/#nabble-td4023200

If those people couldn't get into the woods from a chairlift, most of them wouldn't be there. Give them the opportunity by making it easy, and they'll take it.

Coach Z wrote

I disagree with making the hike longer.  That will penalize everyone in the form of less roundtrips in a day.  

 

Quality over quanity Coach!    Do it only on weekends and/or holidays maybe...

On my cat skiing trip we had to carry all the gear!  

Coach Z wrote

I disagree with making the hike longer.  

Also I've witnessed two members of the general public get clobbered by the summit quad cause they stopped and gawked at the cluster duck around the slide access gate....  Saftey first!

We'll break you a boot pack that won't suck!  

It is NOT just to weed out crappy skiers, obviously crappy skiers can buy a beacon.  It is a slide and it can produce an avalanche.  Actually ski patrol was up on the section above the slides sidestepping it yesterday.  That was the concern that the top COULD potentially slide.  The slides will not ALWAYS be only with beacon.  Its is early season right now.  In fact, if they open today they may not require beacons.   Then they will ask your ability level, and if you lie, then thats your problem, and unfortunately anyone around you.

And I didnt mean side stepping, i meant skiing in the top..