Snowmaking and a Trail's Character

One of my favorite runs at Steamboat this past week was Longhorn, which is a narrowish blue-black trail with plenty of pitch and curves to it.  It, like all other trails in the Pioneer Ridge/Pony Express area are covered completely by natural snow.  However, it is by no means a "natural trail" having been groomed every day I skied it.  It, and the rest of the Pioneer Ridge trails typically open by Christmas in an average to good snow year, but in a poor to mediocre snow year, aren't always ready, and they'll have to wait till January to open them.  Longhorn had decent coverage on it.  There were no bare spots.  However, there was one rock I almost hit, and a very small amount of growth sticking up, which was also easily avoided.

I read Steamboat's master plan recently, and one of the simpler upgrades proposed was to add snowmaking to Longhorn, Middle Rib, Chaps, and the very bottom of Pony Express Lift Line.  This would essentially guarantee that section's opening by Christmas every year.  However, the plan also includes widening Longhorn by 30 feet, and increasing capacity on the Pony Express from 1,200 pph to 1,800 pph.  These upgrades would allow that section to absorb more of the crowd, but would make it ski much more like Storm Peak right next door, rather than having it's own unique qualities.

In a way, Steamboat skis like Gore on steroids.  It is very sectionalized with each area having its own unique feeling.  That's one of the things I liked about skiing there.  All sections with the exception of Morningside and Pioneer Ridge have snowmaking on at least a couple trails.  Morningside is completely above 10,000 feet and definitely doesn't need any snowmaking to open by Christmas.  Pioneer Ridge is another story.  It is significantly lower with the top being at 9,700 feet and the bottom only 8,000 feet.  If there's a bad snow year, or even a mediocre one, it isn't opening till January.  The upgrades they proposed would mean this is a non issue.  I just think that they might make that section lose some of what makes it unique.

Personally, I think that the snowmaking is a good idea, but widening the run isn't.  They have plenty of other wide open groomers, so why not let Pioneer Ridge be the section for the narrower runs.  Some can be groomed, and others left for bumps.  If a run is going to be groomed daily anyways, I don't care where the snow comes from as long as it's in good condition.  A manmade base hiding all the rocks and vegetation that was covered over by natural would ski great.  In fact, on the runs with snowmaking, they skied the same as the runs with no snowmaking.  Basically, in a good snow year, the natural snow would cover the manmade and the conditions would be just as good or better than natural snow alone.  In a bad snow year, you're only going to be skiing where there is manmade, so you're not losing out on the better natural snow by having a run equipped with snowmaking.

I know this was long-winded, but all other factors equal, does the presence of snowmaking hurt a trail's character.  I say that snowmaking alone does not, but widening, and other changes does.

Dude, you're in Steamboat in what is, basically, an awesome snow year. Screw snowmaking. Duck into the trees.

Snowmaking will widen the runs whether you like it or not. Snowmaking kills trees.

Your were at Steamboat at one of the busiest times of year I assume. How crowded was it?  Could those crowds be handled with 30% less terrain in a lower snow year?

Nobody in the business wants to add snowmaking.  It's expensive, requires water, it raises ticket prices and isn't as good to ski.  Mountains add snowmaking because they have too. Do they have too?

If they do have to (going forward) I'm sure they will. Until then enjoy the natural cover.

I can't speak to Steamboat but what I have experienced when skiing the western resorts during a low snow year or during a period where there has been no snow and a thaw-freeze is that the trails and lifts can get quite crowded for the same amount of people as a high snow year where the mountain will seem pretty empty. Why - because there is so much skiable terrain beyond the groomers and that terrain usually takes longer to ski a run. The good thing is that usually the locals stay home during those times though. So observing how crowded the trails are or how busy the lifts are on a great snow year is not a good data point for making a decision on snow making or trail widening.

I hate man made snow but if it's all you've got than I'll take it over dirt and rocks. Wait to you get back east, your view of what is good and bad will have dramatically changed as you have completed this next phase of your education. You were very lucky to hit the jackpot as you did and have had this great experience which should help you better relate to what many of us already know. I am sure you will go back many times now and within a few seasons might even graduate to terrain one can only reach on foot.

Colorado is off to one of the best seasons in years including the boat, the boat is laid out IMO similar to Gore (just bigger and better snow with epic tree stashes everywhere) and you're talking about manmade runs?  Your posts never cease to amaze me. You must do it to gets things stirred up, or maybe you just truly love the Mountain Creek style manmade hardback/ice?  No foul, I went out west with a bunch of friends from NJ and they couldn't ski good snow/ pow to save their lives.  They were actually begging for firm snow.  Sometimes it's what you're used to and subsequently what you'll gravitate to.  Hopefully you skied a variety of terrain out there.  Fun mountain and fun town.  

My apologies Snoloco, I misread the intent of your post.  It sounds like you hammered it everywhere and were merely pointing out pros/cons of snowmaking.  I can tell you from living out there for 6 years that most seasons  can start out pretty lean with snowy.  So, it's one of those trade offs with potential unintended consequences.

I skied 6 days straight, 4 of which were open to close.  I did get in the trees on a couple of the days which was cool.  They have a very good early season record, and some locals told me that the best snow was typically late December through January.  Much of the mountain faces south, so they don't hold up well late season.

You are correct in that I am used to hard snow.  We didn't have much new snow when we were there.  If we did, I would not have been able to ski it very well because I don't have the proper equipment.  My skis are 76mm wide, so basically are like race skis, which don't work well in powder.  My dad has 81mm wide skis, so he would do slightly better.  Needless to say, the conditions were great the entire time I was there, and I want to go back ASAP.

If it snows out their rent powder skiis..Go to SLC for your next trip out west.I glad you got great time at Steamboat. I was their in March and conditions were crappy.

My dad has status on United Airlines, so our bags go for free, which is essential when you have skis and boots and all the other crap that you need to ski for a week.  They don't go to SLC nonstop.  After our HDN connection got cancelled, we decided no more connecting flights in the winter.  Luckily Steamboat was close enough to drive from Denver.  SLC is not and our trip would have been a lost cause due to overbooking and zero available seats.  If UA adds a nonstop from Newark to SLC, it's definitely a possibility.  If not, were kind of stuck with Denver.

snoloco wrote

If UA adds a nonstop from Newark to SLC, it's definitely a possibility.  If not, were kind of stuck with Denver.

So you won't go to one of the best skiing regions in the country because you can't get a nonstop flight there? Because you had one flight cancellation?

Having one stop is the norm when you fly out if ALB or BTV.  I'd prefer to not 2 or 3 stops as it just takes so much extra time and does increase risk of delays / missed flights

That drive from Denver to the Boat is to be avoided.  We flew into Eagle once and drove to Steamboat which is not a bad drive at all with no passes to go over.

I do like that section of the mountain but as you mentioned it us lower.  In Spring that we ski that early in the day as the corn thaws out first there.  Then move to Storm Peak Late morning.  

billyymc wrote

snoloco wrote

If UA adds a nonstop from Newark to SLC, it's definitely a possibility.  If not, were kind of stuck with Denver.

So you won't go to one of the best skiing regions in the country because you can't get a nonstop flight there? Because you had one flight cancellation?

Because delays/cancellations are even more likely in the winter.  Our trip wouldn't have happened if we were going to SLC.  It's not driving distance from Denver and there would have been zero availability due to overbooking.

I wouldn't rule out SLC because of not having non-stop flights. Steamboat is a great place, but skiing the SLC area with so many options so close together shouldn't be missed.

I guess maybe we have been lucky on our trips west. In about 8 trips west in the past 10 years we've had minor delays both air and driving. We've squeaked through a couple times - once had to take a flight to Albany instead of Binghamton  - but overall we have been very lucky with our winter travel.

billyymc wrote

snoloco wrote

If UA adds a nonstop from Newark to SLC, it's definitely a possibility.  If not, were kind of stuck with Denver.

So you won't go to one of the best skiing regions in the country because you can't get a nonstop flight there? Because you had one flight cancellation?

Oh come on Billy. Sounds like they went where it made the best use of their time and resources. Nothing wrong with that.

If you were going to SLC from Newark on United  you probably would have connected in Chicago or Houston not Denver.

You guys should explore potentially skiing in Europe.  You can fly to Zurich or Geneva direct on United from Newark hop on a train right in the airport and be at a great resort in an hour or so.  No need to rent a car.  Lift tickets are super cheap compared to the US becuase we have a crappy legal system here.  Plus Europe has the coolest assortment of state of the art lifts.  Exchange rates are favorable now too.

Getting back to your original question, I have to say that I think the concern about widening the trail is probably justified. I have read a few books about the history of skiing  and the thing that the really old guys lament is how many of the old, twisty narrow New  England-ish trails have been widened and straightened to the point where they loose their character. More snow-making and lift capacity is great but I have really come to appreciate the mountains that recognize the other side of the argument too. It's the primary reason I love Plattekill so much (chute in particular). I have never skied Steamboat so I can't comment on that specific spot but I hate to hear about trails being widened as a general thing.

Kinda like Gore's Twister trail.

Coach Z wrote

If you were going to SLC from Newark on United  you probably would have connected in Chicago or Houston not Denver.

You guys should explore potentially skiing in Europe.  You can fly to Zurich or Geneva direct on United from Newark hop on a train right in the airport and be at a great resort in an hour or so.  No need to rent a car.  Lift tickets are super cheap compared to the US becuase we have a crappy legal system here.  Plus Europe has the coolest assortment of state of the art lifts.  Exchange rates are favorable now too.

I just did some shopping on Kayak for direct Milan flights from JFK. Found some at 550 RT, but leave Monday, back the Friday in the next week. Still, wow, thats cheap. And tons of trains leave Milan.

Snowballs wrote

Kinda like Gore's Twister trail.

Twister was widened due to racing/safety requirements for speed training and events.

Benny Profane wrote

I just did some shopping on Kayak for direct Milan flights from JFK. Found some at 550 RT, but leave Monday, back the Friday in the next week. Still, wow, thats cheap. And tons of trains leave Milan.

American nonstop to Zurich from JFK using FF miles is an insane deal, only 20K miles each way -- lands before 8 am (easy arrival day turns) and is available on most flights through the winter.

Not sure why American offers that rate while Delta and United's cheapest to Europe is 30K each way, but I didn't look that gift horse in the mouth.