Spring Skiing

There comes a point in every ski areas season when the walk up and online ticket sales do not financially justify a ski area staying open. They already have the pass holders’ money. For the sake of discussion let’s say that date this season at Ski Area X is March 23rd.  Let’s also say that the weather will allow X to stay open until the end of April. Of course as snow melts terrain and lifts will be limited. How long do you think X should stay open?

I'm sure some of you will answer that it doesn't matter to you because you'll skin or head to Tucks. However, as seasoned and informed skiers I'd like to read your opinions on the business decisions you think X should make and why.

They should probably do what most resorts do and come in in the middle somewhere.  Most resorts that would be able to do this this year will probably close 4/12 or 4/19.  They might be able to stay open a bit later than that, but the cost doesn't justify it.  Hunter has a shytton of snow on most of their trails, probably enough to make the end of April, but they will be closing on April, 12 regardless of snow.  Windham always closes 1st Sunday in April regardless of snow.  I was a passholder there in 10-11 and they were 100% open on closing day, even the natural snow trails.  I was there on 3/30 in 2013 which was the day before closing day.  The snow was awesome and the weather was beautiful, they even had a large event going on.  Still hardly anyone was there and we never waited in a lift line or shared a chair all day.  It was sad that they would be closing the next day with all that snow left, but most of their customers moved from their ski house to their beach house and that was it.

OK, but why do those ski areas do what they do in your opinion? Do you think that is their best course of action?

I think this time frame will vary depending on a ski center's overhead.  Coming from the xc point of view here.  I can think of one large, iconic xc center that will close at the end of March, even if they have great conditions, because they have a fair amount of staff and overhead vs dwindling number of visitors.  Can think of another center with awesome conditions and quite low overhead that will keep going until people stop going.  Maybe mid April at this rate.

In upstate New York, I hope to get to Easter.  After that, it's cream on top.  People start transitioning to their spring/summer activities and even though there are plenty of us that still want to ski, there are plenty more that want to be doing something else.  

I think it's got a lot to do with the ski area's clientele.  If it's more of a hard-core skier clientele, the ski area will accrue enough marketing/PR benefit to make it worth staying open and continue attracting those passholders in future years.  Hard to measure the value of Reputation in dollars and cents, so you can't look at it purely as a revenues > expenses equation.  Killington, Jay, Wildcat are good examples where it makes sense to stay open late, even at a net loss, for the marketing benefit.  It's the price of bragging rights.

In a highly simple view, its because of money. If they were making money they would stay open as long as possible. At this point its riding it out to appease the season pass holders and as such marketing purposes for season passes for next year. Being able to claim a later closing date (and on the flip side having an early opening date), theres a value to that. Its why Killington has been pushing aggressively the last few years. Its easy marketing, it appeases customers who come year after year spending on season passes, and have the ability to shift their dollars if they feel a better benefit somewhere else.

Inherently I would believe that people running these resorts are at heart Skiers/Riders just like all of us and try to find that balance.

Adk Jeff wrote

I think it's got a lot to do with the ski area's clientele.  If it's more of a hard-core skier clientele, the ski area will accrue enough marketing/PR benefit to make it worth staying open and continue attracting those passholders in future years.  Hard to measure the value of Reputation in dollars and cents, so you can't look at it purely as a revenues > expenses equation.  Killington, Jay, Wildcat are good examples where it makes sense to stay open late, even at a net loss, for the marketing benefit.  It's the price of bragging rights.

Good point here.

Some other issues that might cross a ski area manager's mind might include whether the mountain's terrain is appropriate for late season skiing and how much extra expense will there be to push around the snow. How many lifts need to run? Some areas have more infrastructure than others. Maybe areas have flat run outs that are not conducive to late season operations.

But for the point of argument, lets say there is so much cold and snow in March that snow doesn't need to be pushed around and flat run outs are still covered, no extra investment. State laws on seasonal employees could create issues but I think most areas could get enough yearly staff to cover the basic operations.

I think the bottom line becomes two fold: A) how much is the marketing and PR worth and B) how will keeping pass holders and guests happy result in sales next year and repeat business. OR another way to look at it: will closing early piss off share holders and guests and make them go somewhere else.

Final thought is that the more areas that stay open, the less of the pie each other area gets. I think having a limited number of areas push for late season actually benefits skiers overall. Maybe some pass holders will be disappointed they have to pay for a late season discounted day ticket at another mountain (but they made the choice on where to buy a season pass knowing about late season operations so STFU). But overall there is more benefit to all skiers if a few areas push really late rather than a lot of areas playing chicken with each other and then all shutting down during the second week of April.

I'm quite happy with the recent late season game with Killington going for it and Jay not far behind. K is central to everyone. The Kitty and the Loaf also go relatively late into April for the "can't get there from here" crowd along the coast.

Highpeaksdrifter wrote

There comes a point in every ski areas season when the walk up and online ticket sales do not financially justify a ski area staying open. They already have the pass holders’ money. For the sake of discussion let’s say that date this season at Ski Area X is March 23rd.  Let’s also say that the weather will allow X to stay open until the end of April. Of course as snow melts terrain and lifts will be limited. How long do you think X should stay open?

I'm sure some of you will answer that it doesn't matter to you because you'll skin or head to Tucks. However, as seasoned and informed skiers I'd like to read your opinions on the business decisions you think X should make and why.

I don't think I answered the question in my last post... was thinking more along the lines of management issues rather than my own personal opinion. I think X area should make an informed business decision. I've seen many a ski area shut down on their scheduled date despite being fully open. If that is their decision, they may risk losing skiers that want more value for their season pass money and may go somewhere else, area X could get a reputation for not going for extra bases when a prime opportunity is there. But that is ultimately area X's choice. If they close, I'll go somewhere else (and give the area I go to a lot of press and positive vibes online in addition to my ticket price).

Late season is when the areas try to convert day ticket buyers to season ticket holders with promotions (ride the season out on next years pass, and bigger discount). Hunter comes on real strong with this sell..

Not that I've been a season pass holder for long, but my experience with WF remaining open as long as conditions reasonably permit, at least as long as they can maintain skiing to the base, was a major factor in me deciding to get the family season passes last year.  An early closing may send a skier to another mountain, and who knows where that leads.....

WF has always been a great mountain, but it really seems to be coming on strong.  I've got to think the reputation, press and advertising (official and word of mouth) they get from extended seasons has got to help that.

Do you think ORDA changes the game?  Taxpayer dollars at work to provide citizens the opportunity to recreate in the mountains, as opposed to a private business concern who needs to turn a profit?

The ski area I am familiar with advises they need 100 paying skiers to cover basic costs of opening the doors.    
I am sure other areas have a similar threshold where they are breaking even, making or losing money.   If losing, they have to consider the value of marketing, as noted.    

Closing during the week, (3 day weekends) less grooming can help with the costs.    


PS:  Gore, please consider using hay to cover the mud in paths.     Or, as I suggested many times before.   Get some snow moved to the base to prep.   Build snow bridges.    

WF should stay open fully through first week of April and then consider Fri-Mon schedule shooting to make at least the second weekend in April.  

People purchase season passes based on length of season, regardless if they start spring activities downstate and stop coming up during the best skiing of the year!  

WF should also consider:

Close gondola first.  

Run Facelift, Little Whiteface, Summit and Lookout Chairs.  No one wants to ski lower mtn when the snow goes to mush.  

Spring Hours.  9:30 lower mtn/10:00 upper mtn.  Staying open later

All things being equal (knowing I had all resources necessary to make it to April 30th), I think my closing date decision would rely heavily on quantitative analysis.  As was mentioned, the "long season" players have already been established.  If I were not managing at one of those areas, and was not trying to challenge one of the established players, I would definitely crunch numbers.

I would set the date, based on the results of a thorough Cost Benefit Analysis, but I would also leave it a bit open ended.  I think the "pass holder bonus weekend" goes a long way for creating a loyal base.  Close it up on the 3rd weekend in April.  Post a message at the P.O.S. on closing Saturday, and send an email that Sunday, and let everyone know that if you have a pass, you can come the next weekend to get some bonus turns.  I would do the same as a "pre-opening" bonus day for pass holders prior to the scheduled opening day.

I'd stay open long enough to have a legitimate Pond Skimming contest.

Totally agree with Scotty

No reason to ski to bottom in a Spring and no reason to ride Gondi unless it's raining

No sure about shortening hours in morning but maybe in afternoon

Whiteface usually has staffing problems in the spring.  I do think they should shut down the gondola.  They usually only have staff to run a few lifts.  Last year I watched Hoyts melt away.  I think they should alternate days with the staff. One day run the summit lift the next run Hoyts.  That pod has created some turmoil with the long time skiers at the hill over its short life span.  As time going on the faithful are coming around to realizing Mountain run and Sky are not the only signature trails.  Hoyts is one of my favorite trails.  So I say three lifts.  High speed quad.  Summit/look out and mountain run chair. We can down load off the quad.  The only time I want to go down to the bottom in the spring is when I am going to the ridge.

Last year they ended with the Gondola, Facelift, Summit Quad, Mixing Bowl, and LWF chair.  They could have easily dropped two of the lifts and added Lookout.  Run Summit, LWF, and Lookout no question and run either Facelift or Gondola to get people up there.

I REALLY like the concept of the passholder bonus weekend!!!

That said, from a different prospective I'm like, well I already have staff here why not make money off of everyone that wants to come here?

Personally I prefer the idea of us passholders having a party to ourselves but I could see a bean counter seeing it differently.