The 25 and 40 Mile Limits on NY State Mtns

Our recent blog piece with Bruce McCulley revived some discussion about the trail limits. It's fairly common knowledge that Whiteface and Belleayre are limited to 25 miles of total trail and Gore is limited to 40 miles by the State constitution.

I've always wondered about why this is so.

If it was just Gore and Whiteface, I might guess that they extremely high elevation of Whiteface was the factor.. a more fragile and visible environment. But with Belleayre in the mix...

Does anybody know why the limits are the way they are? Why Gore has more?

Was it just politics?

Thanks to flyover at FTO for the link to Section 1 of Article XIV of the NYS Constitution:

http://www.adirondack-park.net/history/article14-text.html

Harv:

An educated guess here:

1.  Gore is "newer," relatively speaking, being approved and built in the early 60s. Planners realized the earlier limits were too low.  Belle was built in 1949, I believe, and Whiteface dates back to the 50s.

2. You can't see most of Gore from the highway or base area, so there's not much environmental impact to nearby views.  Whiteface looks like a slash and burn timber harvesting project by comparison, and Belle is a pretty unappealing view to tree huggers, as it looks like a LOT of short trails down one long ridge.

Kid... I think those are probably the logical reasons in a vacuum.  Those were my guesses.

Tonight I heard that another explanation that seems plausible to me.

Gore really was in a different category at the time the trail limits were set.

If you notice Article whatever it is... mentions both Gore and Pete Gay Mountains for development.  Much of this land was originally Barton's land.  When you look on the current property lines surrounding  the summit of Pete Gay, you can at least partially envision the chunk that that went from Barton's Mine to Gore.

In the state's mind they were actually to some extent, reclaiming land that was no longer in use.  Because of that, the usage limits were set higher. It was considered a highly impacted site.  I mean it is really.

I'm told that Pete Gay is 100% off the table for development. Basically for lifts/pods, Gore is now done.

Mike is at +/- 36 miles right now. That sorta make sense.

BUT... I must disclose my dream.

It's hard to sit in the Saddle Lodge and have lunch without gazing at decidous forests on the Gore side of Pete Gay.

If I was president, I'd run a lift up there ... possible a surface lift or a single chair.

There would be no trails, it would be all gladed.

I'm sure there's some logical reason why it's not possible.

Just sayin.

Doing some research here.. - numbers used to be different in 1954

New York State wrote

The lands of the state, now owned or hereafter acquired,
constituting the forest preserve as now fixed by law, shall be forever
kept as  wild  forest  lands.  They  shall  not  be  leased,  sold  or
exchanged,  or  be  taken  by  any corporation, public or private, nor
shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed.

This was the key part of Article 14, then we get to exceptions:

New York State wrote

Nothing herein contained shall prevent the state from ... constructing and maintaining  not  more than  twenty-five miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no more  than  five miles  of  such  trails  shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet
wide, on the north, east and northwest slopes of Whiteface Mountain in Essex county, nor from constructing  and  maintaining  not  more  than twenty-five  miles  of  ski  trails  thirty  to two hundred feet wide,
together with appurtenances thereto, provided that no  more  than  two miles  of  such  trails  shall be in excess of one hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of  Belleayre  Mountain  in  Ulster  and  Delaware
counties  and  not  more  than forty miles of ski trails thirty to two hundred feet wide, together with appurtenances thereto, provided  that no  more  than  eight  miles  of such trails shall be in excess of one
hundred twenty feet wide, on the slopes of Gore and Pete Gay mountains in Warren county,

I have few questions now...

- Since management is not counting glades as part of mileage allowed, they fall under main part
of the article "nor shall the timber thereon be sold, removed or destroyed."
Does that mean that cutting glades is illegal?

- Is it legal to cut trees under lift-lines?

- Will the price of gold ever fall below $1000?

No.
Yes.
And probably not.

The ski areas (Gore and WF) are classified as "intensive use" which allows for tree cutting and thinning for lifts and creation of glades.  This is the same land use classification as the state campgrounds, where similar tree cutting activity is allowed for the creation and maintenance of those recreation facilities.

As for gold, I don't see sub-$1000 anytime soon, but who knows?...

Adk Jeff wrote

The ski areas (Gore and WF) are classified as "intensive use" which allows for tree cutting and thinning for lifts and creation of glades.

Is "intensive use" term and fact that ski areas are classified as such, defined by the same document (N.Y. State Constitution) ?  If it is just a law or NY agency regulation then it is clearly against Article XIV.

It was the APA act in the early 70s that gave rise to the various land classifications for both private land and Forest Preserve in the Adirondacks.  Of course the campgrounds and ski areas existed prior to that, so I'm not exactly sure how the constitutional issues with respect to Forever Wild were resolved, but  I don't beleive that the existence of the ski areas, campgrounds and other recreational facilities was considered controversial/

The limits are a bummer. They already have changed to handle racing (80 foot max width to 200 ft max width). I wish they increased the mileage also. When both areas are at the max WF will have about 250 acres of skiing and Gore will have about 500 acres of skiing. When compared to the 6.1 million acres in the park it is a mere drop in the ocean. Gore could probably cut another 200 acres of trails without adding any more lifts and still not have lift lines. I am sure the limits were plucked out of thin air.

In the early 1980s Whiteface planted a low line of pine trees on either Cloudspin or Skyward or both(memory is fogged) because of the widening for the Olympic downhills. It was to try and limit the width back to the 80 foot max. I do not remember if there was any enforcement but eventually the trees were removed. Does anybody have any info or memories of this?

On the Gore trail map, the lift-line runs are labeled “glades:” High Pines Glade (Top Ridge chair), Dark Side Glade (High Peaks chair), Gun Barrel / Double Barrel (Straightbrook chair).  So as “glades” do they even count against Gore’s 40 mile trail limit?  Wouldn’t the lift-line runs at WF also be considered “glades?”

x10003q wrote

 Gore could probably cut another 200 acres of trails without adding any more lifts and still not have lift lines.

Why bother? realistically, there isn't that much room between trails as it. Do you have anywhere in specific you want to cut? Gore is primarily known for their glades... why clear cut the mountain?

Adk Jeff wrote

 So as “glades” do they even count against Gore’s 40 mile trail limit?  Wouldn’t the lift-line runs at WF also be considered “glades?”

I'm almost positive lift lines and glades don't count towards the 40 mile limit. I'm pretty sure in one of the Q&A's with Mike Pratt he states that.

fujative wrote

I'm almost positive lift lines and glades don't count towards the 40 mile limit. I'm pretty sure in one of the Q&A's with Mike Pratt he states that.

Exactly.  The Bruce McCulley Q&A seems to contradict that.

I noticed that too, but didn't wanna ruffle feathers. I would guess Pratt was correct and McCulley was being political or misinformed. Just guessing. It could be reverse.

It makes some sense that lift lines would not be counted as trails.

Snowballs wrote

didn't wanna ruffle feathers.

Snowballs... you feeling alright?

Hehehe. Good one!

Ok then, on the gold subject, it makes more sense to ask when will the price of gold hit $2,000?