The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

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The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
From a reliable source:

I just got back from a meeting with the World XCD Council... The whole new NNN-BC trend seems to be slightly problematic for the Council.

The official maximum ski tip width for a XCD is still 109mm. Wider than this, it's almost impossible for anyone to go downhill efficiently on cableless pins and leathers. Now thanks to all the internet NNN-BC heroes, the NNN truth is spreading all around. Would it be possible to drive wider skis, let's say 120 or 125mm, with soft leathers with no clips and NNNBC bindings? I do believe so. And that's what that I brought forward to the rest of the Council today.

Those are actually very exciting times for XCD. The Knights will have to speak about it soon, since NNN-BC opens a whole new world of possibilities. It could be a rule-changing thing. The Council was not closed to the idea of raising the maximum width of XCD skis. It's been around for quite sometime, but since there's more and more converts everyday, they start taking the issue more seriously. But they still need to see more of what can be done and wait some time before taking a decision. Because this could change cross-country downhill forever...

Very, very exciting indeed...!
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Chris
These guys are like wizards!
The day begins...  Your mountain awaits.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Harvey
Administrator
Guess I miss the cut with my Rossi 110s.  :)

Not a fan of NNN. The BCs are a little better than the regular, but was left in a desperate situation by those bindings, never going back. Certainly not for a few ounces.

"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Sick Bird Rider
In reply to this post by MikeK
Wow, no offense, but the Knights are a bit slow on the uptake of technology. NNN BC has been around since 1989 and non-Knights have been tele-ing and touring on it since then.

Here is video from 2008, featuring a famously banned personality from a number of ski forums skiing on what he calls "rugged touring gear," which you call XCD:



I need to dig out my XCD collection and take a picture of it: a skiable pair of every one of the XCD series designed by Antii Tiitola for Karhu: XCD GT, XCD Comp, XCD Supreme and XCD Extreme. All three-pin, no cables. Make me an offer!

Love Jay Peak? Hate Jay Peak? You might enjoy this: The Real Jay Peak Snow Report
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Harvey
Administrator
"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
In case you missed some of the other Knight Lore:

MikeK wrote
PS

Technically according to the Knights Templar of XCD:

Leather boots, plain pins or NNN/BC, Skis less than 109mm max width = XCD

Plastic boots, cables/wires/free pivots, Skis over 110mm = Lite Tele

If you carry a cable in your pack and ski with pins and leather boots, then you can be both in the same tour.

I know it sounds crazy but really if you don't make that distinction what is the difference between T2s, switchbacks, scaled Voile V6s and 215cm E99s, Norwegian welted boots and Rotte Super Teles?  Fishscales and a freeheel don't make it XCD.  Wax is every bit XCD, even more so XC than scales if done with leathers and neutral bindings.

Skins are considered XCD if they are applied to skis that meet the 109 rule and typically kicker skins or the new 'easy' skins are preferred.

PPS

The Knights are very strict, and very secretive about how these rules are made and upheld, but due to recent marketing trends, the 109 rule has been exceeded by Fischer and Rossignol with skis that are essentially of the same camber, rocker and construction as the smaller versions with slightly more width under foot, and thus more width in the shovel.

Careful consideration is being made as to whether to increase the 109 rule to 125mm to include said skis, but more testing needs to be done to see if the fun requirements are met with currently available leather boots.  If these strict requirements are not met, then the Knights will be forced to uphold the 109 rule until better leather boots with free ankle motion are available that can adequately drive said skis.  If one is forced to move to two buckle plastic boot in which the tibia is not free to move fore and aft as is in typical leather mountaineering, hiking or light exo-skeleton style skate boots, then it shall be considered Lite Tele, regardless of whether the 109 rule is met or not.

I'm not a Knight.  I only know of them and their code.

Thing is, you never know who these guys are... it's a secret society.  The only way to tell for sure is to check for a tattoo under the right eyelid.  There should be three dots symbolizing 3 pins; the origin coming from the 'pinners' comprising the original Knights.

If you are so unlucky as to run into one, and make the mistake of disgracing their code... well, I can't be responsible for what might happen.  They are instructed to discipline any offenders with no discretion.

Some believe Steve Barnett started the Knights before he wrote Cross-Country Downhill, but there is no proof.  No ones been able to get hold of him long enough to check under his eyelid, and well... that doesn't mean he started them.  It could have just as likely been any bearded male with sunglasses and arms held high in the air with poles that are just way too long...

You can spot the old Knights by their long skis, typically in the 210-215cm range, tattered and often duct-taped leather shoes, long (even if adjustable) XC poles and 3 pin bindings.  No cables, EVER.

The younger Knights or ones that have jobs may also be found on the newer gear, like your Alpinas.  You'll never see them with a cable though.  That is strictly forbidden in their code.
Harvey,

you defied the code by using plastic boots and cables.  The skis are irrelevant.

SBR,

The Knights accepted NNN-BC almost immediately after it was introduced.  It's a XC technology after all, and they are there to protect the sanctity of XC in the XCD.

This is why they designed the limits.  They were worried that skiers, being the idiots that they are, would just want to strap on more powerful boots and bindings and buy wider skis instead of learning the art of skiing downhill with XC focused gear and well, XC skiing.

You'll notice all their limits on their code relate to keeping in touch with the XC roots, the three major things are:

Width of ski: 

Wide skis are trendy.  The Knights realized this and only wanted to endorse ski widths that provided FUN and kept in the spirit of XC.  A keen XCD skier will notice the 109 dimension relates to the max width of the Karhu Guide.  The last time they increased the limit was for the Karhu XCD series skis.  I have a theory that the designer of those skis is a Knight and on the council, but no proof... yet.  Anyway the Rossi BC110 and Fischer S Bound 112 came long after they changed the rule last.  The Knights recognized Rossi and Fischer were just changing that dimension slightly for silly marketing purposes and didn't bother to review the doctrines.

Bindings:

The Knights are very strict about this part.  Bindings are highly contentious in the skiing world but again, in order to keep the sacred ties to XC, the binding MUST NOT have modes, or switches and must have a completely free heel - cables, springs, loops, whatever are just not XC.  The only binding types that qualify for this are simple pin type bindings and the system bindings currently used by XC skiers today.  The NNN-BC/SNS are simply a little bit beefier to handle wider skis and different turning techniques on ungroomed snow.  The Knights accept both NNN and NNN-BC, but most XCD skiers consider NNN-BC the better choice.

Boots:

The boots must allow the skier to kick and glide effectively with the XC type binding.  XC skiers don't switch modes to ascend and descend, so neither should an XCD skier.  Boots become very critical because they tie how much fun one can have with ski width and binding power with the ability to still articulate the foot for effective kick and glide.  This means the Knights have not accepted two buckle plastic boots.  They simply do not allow free motion of the ankle needed to get an effective stride on XC skis.  Hybrid boots that have plastic exo skeletons, much in the same way skate boots are designed but with extra heft for control on hills have been accepted, and are actively endorsed.  Some of the very conservative Knights still believe it should have stayed with the pin and Norwegian welted boot system, but technology and times changed and the availability of gear forced them to reconsider.

Anyway the OP is misleading...

They are considering reviewing the limits again because of new skis on the market like the BC125, S Bound 125, Altai Kom, etc... but if they cannot effectively be skied with NNN-BC or 3 pin bindings and leather boots, then they simply must fall into the lite Tele category.

There's also the contentious point that certain Alpine style, fishscaled skis like the Vector would then fall under the width rule but it is assured that rockered skis with flat camber will not be allowed by any Knight.  If that's the case we might as well call Alpine Touring XCD!!!
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
In reply to this post by Harvey
Harvey wrote
That looks like my father-in-law*, and he is DEFINITELY not a XCD Knight.





*He's a retired pharmacist who spends his time playing an online tank game, reading about war history and watching Fox news.  His political views, oddly enough, seem to coincide with Coach's.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
A Knight?  The original Knight?

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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

freeheeln
As Kman so eloquently said "Leathers for cows"It 2016 join the party.
Tele turns are optional not mandatory.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
freeheeln wrote
As Kman so eloquently said "Leathers for cows"It 2016 join the party.
I refuse to buy into that oil industry propaganda!
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Harvey
Administrator
In reply to this post by MikeK
I was trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about and googled it:

http://www.knightstemplar.org/

I guess I missed the mark but that bro was funneh.
"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
You won't find what I'm talking about on Google, unless you happen along another obscure forum that speaks of the Knights.

I'm surprised SBR doesn't know about the Knights.  I thought he might be a Knight himself.

And for the record, Knights can and do ski on all sorts of other gear... but they only XCD with leather boots, skinny(ish) skis and no cables.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Sick Bird Rider
In reply to this post by MikeK
This is the best and weirdest thread ever, all at the same time. I may need a day or so off to gather my thoughts.
Love Jay Peak? Hate Jay Peak? You might enjoy this: The Real Jay Peak Snow Report
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Sick Bird Rider
In reply to this post by MikeK
MikeK wrote
I'm surprised SBR doesn't know about the Knights.  I thought he might be a Knight himself.
Well, we are a little isolated from popular culture up here. I could have been a Knight until I discovered plastic.
Love Jay Peak? Hate Jay Peak? You might enjoy this: The Real Jay Peak Snow Report
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Marcski
Sick Bird Rider wrote
MikeK wrote
I'm surprised SBR doesn't know about the Knights.  I thought he might be a Knight himself.
Well, we are a little isolated from popular culture up here. I could have been a Knight until I discovered plastic.
It's like when Dylan went electric.  The heretic!
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
In reply to this post by Sick Bird Rider
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.  I'm probably a lot weirder than any may expect, hence my (possibly unhealthy) obsession with Nordic Backcountry skiing and my strict adherence to the Knight's code.

Sick Bird Rider wrote
Well, we are a little isolated from popular culture up here. I could have been a Knight until I discovered plastic.
This is anything but popular.  It would actually be classified as anti-pop.

And there's nothing wrong with liking plastic, you just like Telemark better than XCD.  And not ironically, that's very popular.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Hudsonhiker
In reply to this post by Sick Bird Rider
I'm with SBR we need to take a day off to go ski in the woods to think on this. As soon as snow comes.
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by MikeK
FWIW one of the largest populations of the followers of the Knights are in Norway.  They call it Fjellski or Fjelling.

This branch of the Knights also strongly favor wax skis.  Asnes and Fischer cater to their unique market and their techniques vary from DPP jump turns to long, smooth tele arcs.

The Gamme family is fairly active in promoting this type of skiing.

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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

MikeK
Banned User
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Re: The Knights Templar of XCD World Conference

Harvey
Administrator
"You just need to go at that shit wide open, hang on, and own it." —Camp
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