The resurrection of Ascutney Mountain

Sno

you are so wrong in so many ways. You need to go ski in Europe where a lot of the best skiing is served by t bars and pomas.  Hell even Snowmass in Aspen the mecca of cushy HSQ's has a surface lift to access the best skiing at their summit.  Surface lifts are awesome!

Then there is the mother of all surface lifts at Portillo - The famed Roca Jack.  Gapers like you can't ride this thing nor could you ski down.





BTW I started teaching at your beloved MC where the beginner area was served by two rope tows.  My guess is that most of the posters on here started skiing using rope tows.

Just because you cant fathom having to hike for your turns why rain on their parade for those that do.  You should have passed on this thread topic as its not for you

hahaha.....the 1st video is great.
Yes lets all just let go with our skis still pointed straight up hill

magic seems to be doing really well

The getting off part is tough.  You are stopping on a 40% pitch pointed backwards.  You need to do a herringbone and step off that edge to face across the hill really quick.  And you absolutely do not want to ride with a snowboarder up this.

They have 5 of these but the Roca Jack is still the king lift known as the hardest to ride in the world.

The guy in the second video commits a no-no as you are not supposed to ever ski over the lifts tracks as it makes it more bumpy.

its also better to go farther skiers right over that little path at the top - its a much longer powder run but you can't lap back directly to the Roca Jack.  There now is a another one of these lifts in that next drainage skiers right.

noip wrote

magic seems to be doing really well

What does that have to do with a community based piece of land that isn't being  solely used for profit motives?

magic doesn't make money

you have to make money to stay in business.  not for profits are not profit less, the profits go into a fund for reinvestment and expenses, ect.  

I should stop being surprised that people have no idea what not for profit means and how not for profits operate.  then again, I guess I shouldn't...

noip wrote

magic doesn't make money

you have to make money to stay in business.  not for profits are not profit less, the profits go into a fund for reinvestment and expenses, ect.

Were do see this place listed as some kind of business?

what are you babbling about?

a community run ski area is a business. it's a business set up as a not for profit organization.  not for profit is away of accounting and abides by specific IRS rules.

 In economic terms, a nonprofit organization uses its surplus revenues to further achieve its purpose or mission, rather than distributing its surplus income to the organization's shareholders.  in regards to ascutney surplus revenues would be needed for capital improvements, fees, expenses incurred that need to be paid when skiers aren't buying tickets.  ie, it would be run like a business to make more money than it costs to operate

magic does not have surplus revenues

didn't tupper lake try to go the community based route - that worked out well

small ski areas are going out of business.  they can't compete.  it's not whether they are for profit or not for profit

noip wrote

what are you babbling about?

a community run ski area is a business. it's a business set up as a not for profit organization.  not for profit is away of accounting and abides by specific IRS rules.

 In economic terms, a nonprofit organization uses its surplus revenues to further achieve its purpose or mission, rather than distributing its surplus income to the organization's shareholders.  in regards to ascutney surplus revenues would be needed for capital improvements, fees, expenses incurred that need to be paid when skiers aren't buying tickets.  ie, it would be run like a business to make more money than it costs to operate

magic does not have surplus revenues

 it's not a ski area

The purpose of Mt Ascutney Outdoors is to harmoniously manage, develop and protect the recreational, educational and environmental assets of the West Windsor Town forest and adjacent land on Mt. Ascutney, while maintaining affordable access for all, for their year round enjoyment.

snoloco wrote

Clearly they want their ski area back open again.....

That's not what I got out of the article and the movement to 'resurrect' Ascutney.

skimore wrote

What part of this community thing can't you grasp?

This is a very good question.  Not everything is black and white.  Something doesn't have to be a viable ski area or nothing at all.  Life includes many shades of grey.

Sno....someday your interest/passion for ski area operations may serve you well.....but it's misplaced in this conversation.  You aren't seeing the 'resurrection' for what it is.  "They", whoever you think "they" are, don't necessarily wasn't there "ski area" back.  They don't want, or need, a ski shop, or ski lifts, or anything else.  There's no need for that to be forced upon them.  

All you are focused on is the ski aspect of this 'resurrection', but it is about more than just the ski area.  It's about conservancy, public land use, historical preservation....and year round community use for more than just skiing.  You underestimate the sense of community that small towns in Vermont might have (heck, they came up $340k short when they didn't get a Federal grant and STILL raised the money to close), and you likely don't have a clue what that community wants out of the area.  You have to stop trying to turn this 'resurrection' into something it isn't.

As others have pointed out, there are plenty of sliding hills out there with rope tows that plenty of people have fun on, some even legitimate businesses.  Let this community conserve their land and slowly work their way back to giving their kids a place to slide, and ride, and hike, etc. without forcing any profit objectives on them.  If it's a full on ski area again someday great......and if not that's ok, too.

Most non profits aim to operate at slightly ahead of break even and then invest anything left over either in the form of new equipment or in offering some disadvantaged users a free ride or discount.

Non profits also do a large degree of fund raising from grants or events to cover their expenses and allow for lower user fees.

NYSEF is a highly evolved non profit that really knows how to fund raise and keep the costs as low as possible for the families.

Tupper tried doing what Ascutney is doing but with lifts.  If all they have is a rope tow for the teaching area their biggest expense is probably going to be insurance.   Other things like trail clearing in the fall is done by volunteers I would assume.

I had no idea what they where doing at Ascutney, i thought it was an effort to bring the old mountain back.  that is not the case.  

I have worked for large not for profits...let me assure you, they are businesses.  some of the staff at these places fought it or wouldn't accept it, but in reality, they were very large organizations run as businesses.  the difference is that the profit motive is a little different.  it's not to be returned to owners, but to make the org better.  that means increases in human and capital assets.

noip is definitely correct about it being a business.

It doesn't have to grow or develop real estate or attract people from New Jersey. All they need to do is break even and pay people for a couple of jobs they create.

skimore wrote

Not every kid is a pansy requiring heated lifts http://www.camillusskihill.com/

Great to see East Hill still around.

YO JD -- didn't know you were a CNY boy

riverc0il wrote

sno... If you want to actually learn something about small community based ski areas in the Northeast, read up about Corcoran's, Northeast Slopes, Lyndon Outing Club, Arrowhead, Storrs Hills, McIntyre, Living Memorial, Veterans Memorial, etc.

Based on Sno's responses, it sounds like he still has not read up on these community areas yet. Hard to discuss a topic with someone that refuses to do additional research and compare apples to apples instead of comparing community areas to resorts. Or even comparing what Ascutney currently is compared to what it used to be. The two operations couldn't be more different.

Many of the areas I listed above are community areas that run on natural snow and surface lifts. There are many more, Kancamagus in Lincoln NH also comes to mind. Powderhouse Hill in ME. Actually, many of Maine areas are probably not for profit community areas... Black Mountain perhaps being the biggest at 1000 vert with a triple chair.

Regarding Magic... love that mountain but I wouldn't call that a community ski area. It is a mountain primarily supported by the Magic community. But community ski area implies almost all of its skiers are local families. Magic gets most of its money from out of state, let alone from out of town or the immediate area. Also, Magic has no beginner lifts nor surface lifts for never evers. It is a mountain with a strong community, but it is not a community ski area.

what you guys are talking about is already being done at a better scale with better terrain

http://www.rastavt.org/

ascutney is dead as a "regular" ski area as I alluded to when I said Magic is doing so well...

ski areas can not sustain the amenities that the average skier demands without real estate sales.

To compare the opportunity at ascutney to silverton really misses what silverton is about and the opportunity that ascutney presents.  I can think of ten places off the top of my head with better skinning than ascutney in vermont that doesn't require any financial assistance.

raisingarizona wrote

It doesn't have to grow or develop real estate or attract people from New Jersey. All they need to do is break even and pay people for a couple of jobs they create.

You are 100% wrong about this. If they don't have a bubble lift, free cookies, asian massage, and a goddamn sushi bar, Barack is going to make his last executive action to gas up the Predators and nuke it from space.

Get a clue, hippy!

They need to break even, obviously.  Since they're not going to be drawing anyone from very far away, there must be enough interest in the community to let it break even.  

If the community wants Ascutney to be resurrected this way, and knows how to pay for it, then let it happen and let them enjoy their ski hill.  My point was that I was skeptical about it being successful without snowmaking in an area that doesn't get much natural snow.  If it never opens, it's definitely going to lose money.

I also don't see how they can charge for this experience unless they have a lift.  If they're using a rope tow, then they can charge for use of it, but if it's on public land, they can't restrict people from hiking up if they don't pay.