Transgender and sports teams

campgottagopee wrote

OK, now I got ya and I agree. Sports these days are COMPLETELY different than when you ( i think) and I were coming up thru the ranks. In my day we played three sports, for me it was cross-country, hoops, and soccer (played football for only 2 years but found the runners got me in better shape for hoops which was my main sport). Seems now kids just play ONE sport (pick anyone) and play it year round trying to become the next Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky etc etc etc. To me that's silly.

John McEnroe completely agrees with you about this (as well as many others): https://medium.com/@onehorsestable/specialization-in-sport-an-adult-issue-impressed-upon-youth-a7cdb180d8b6#.3jw0xwof4


Let me break apart your other quote.

campgottagopee wrote

I mean why would we want to teach today's youth life lessons?

What lesson does letting this kid play on the team prevent them from learning? Or the other team? If anything, it's an opportunity, not a punishment.

campgottagopee wrote

 
Teach them how to be good losers and even better winners. Teach them that it's OK if you didn't make the team this year, go work on your dribbling skills and we'll take another look next year.

Doesn't all that apply to the big girl as well?

campgottagopee wrote

ML -- in NO WAY am I meaning to slam you or anything like that. You asked what the big deal is, to me it's a REAL big deal and we're heading in the wrong direction with kids and their sports.

First of campy, the picture was presented without context, so we have no idea what's going on or whether everyone got a trophy or whatever. Second, these kids will still learn something in team sports, maybe even valuable lessons like "not everyone is the same as you".

To me it gets more complicated down the road, when maybe a transgendered person wants to play professional tenning "cause they played it in hs". But in school, I think the good far outweighs the bad. Team sports are about learning to get along with people, trying to do your best, see if the whole can be better than the individual, sticking up for teammates. These are universals that have nothing to do with any one person. I just don't get it, where is the big deal?

warp daddy wrote

Ok here are two dichotomous thoughts :

 1.I agree the issue Is a tempest in a teapot  and the notion that a president ANY president has to opine where one should pee is patently ridiculous .

Warp, stop being a dinosaur. Obama had to say something because NC passed a law that unfairly targets an already discriminated against minority. Look up their suicide statistics, a trans person is 3x more likely or something to kill themselves.

Saying something on behalf of this group does not have much to do with the price of tea in china or the wars we're in.

Johnnyonthespot wrote

That's racist, dude. Michelle does not fit your ideal model of attractive (white, skinny, whatever) so she is a man. Grow up.

ML, it's a slippery slope for sure. I just don't see anything good coming out of it.....that said, I have old fashion values and I'm far from politically correct so this kind of thing just makes my head hurt.

ml242 wrote

 Second, these kids will still learn something in team sports, maybe even valuable lessons like "not everyone is the same as you".

Or lets get this really tall muscular chick that's actually a dude and we can kick everyone's ass

That there just doesn't seem right

Ml  i care little about being pc strictly because some fringe element feels Aggrieved . Labels like "dinosaur "only matter if one shares the values of the labeler and cares about the issue . And it is patently ridiculous for any president to make this a big deal , there are much bigger issues unattended and unresolved .
 

So We simply have to agree to disagree , i mean u no ridicule at all , simply an honest difference of values and Opinions

I can see how this is going to pan out, let's take crew as an example. Say the womens crew coach at Williams has a really bad year, well it does not take a leap to say she starts looking at young male HS rowers who would like to get into Williams but maybe don't have the grades, get them to state their gender identity as female, put them on the women's team and give them a full ride. Now you have a winning boat, they get to go to Williams and everybody is happy. Only in America. I think I'll declare myself as a women and start my next company up as "Women owned", that will get me access to government funding I could not normally get. Yep - this is really going to help things.  

PeeTex wrote

 I think I'll declare myself as a women and start my next company up as "Women owned", that will get me access to government funding I could not normally get. Yep - this is really going to help things.

Now you're onto something there. Maybe Harv can declare and get some funding for his blog

ml242 wrote

It is a complicated issue, but what's the big deal? It's high school sports.

Wow, this thread is all over the place, but I'll start here.

You are asking what the big deal is about having transgender kids on sports team, and we aren't talking about a girl who identifies as a boy being on a girls team, or a boy who identifies as a girl being on a boys team, right?

ml....obviously you ski, but did you play team sports growing up?  Also, why do you think there are, and do you think they should do away with, separate boys and girls teams/divisions?

On the 'it's just high school sports' front.....what are you trying to say?  Do you not think high school sports are important?

Need to know where you are coming from before I can state what I think the big deal is.

Probably not realistic to have four bathrooms or sports teams. Do you discriminate as in no sports for transgender?

ml242 wrote

campgottagopee wrote

I mean why would we want to teach today's youth life lessons?

What lesson does letting this kid play on the team prevent them from learning? Or the other team?

Again, not trying to pick on you ml, but I need to understand what you are saying before I can respond.

Are you saying that if 50 kids try out for the varsity soccer team they should all be on the team.  100 kids on the varsity baseball team, too?

Skimore you troll.

Our company is owned 50/50 male/female and we have actually considered transferring 1% for the advantage it provides.

A timeless classic.

This is the one I actually meant to post but both are equally worthy imho. Enjoy!

 

Harvey wrote

Skimore you troll.

Our company is owned 50/50 male/female and we have actually considered transferring 1% for the advantage it provides.

So you'll soon be the majority owner

JTG4eva! wrote

You are asking what the big deal is about having transgender kids on sports team, and we aren't talking about a girl who identifies as a boy being on a girls team, or a boy who identifies as a girl being on a boys team, right?

that's what trans means, "identifying as". this would make me ineligible to be the best girls dodgeball player of all time.

JTG4eva! wrote

ml....obviously you ski, but did you play team sports growing up?  Also, why do you think there are, and do you think they should do away with, separate boys and girls teams/divisions?

Many years of soccer (goalie, forward), slightly fewer in baseball (pitcher, ss/2b), basketball (barely any), and a couple in lacrosse (midfield).

Who said anything doing away with anything? We are talking about a a relative pittance (though more than most people would suspect) of kids across the country and some people want to argue like the sky is falling in.

JTG4eva! wrote

On the 'it's just high school sports' front.....what are you trying to say?  Do you not think high school sports are important?

Need to know where you are coming from before I can state what I think the big deal is.

I do think they're important. I also think the end goal isn't winning, it's about life experience.

JTG4eva! wrote

Are you saying that if 50 kids try out for the varsity soccer team they should all be on the team.  100 kids on the varsity baseball team, too?

Where did I say that every kid gets to make the team?

Racist? come on "dude". You have no idea what I like. To make that assumption is comical. Did I invade your safe space or say a trigger word again? Sorry, j/k. I just don't want every kid gets a trophy to turn in to every lazy adult gets the same pay as someone else.

Hey ml, anyone ever tell you you'd make a great politician?

So, the 6'5" kid whose birth certificate and learner's permit say male has to earn his-her way onto the girls basketball team through superior play, you won't put them on the team just because they want to be there and it would be a good life experience.

One big deal I see, from a practical perspective, is the issue of physical stature and ability.  While it won't always be the case, as might be the case in the picture in the original post you easily could have a larger, heavier, more physically gifted transgender boy-identifying-as-girl on a girls basketball team, playing against smaller girls.  In today's day and age of concussion protocols and whatnot, safety has to be a focus.  Having such a physical disparity can certainly present a safety issue.  That's why they have the teams.  You don't think it matters, because it's a pittance of kids across the country.....tell that to the one parent whose kid is inevitably paralyzed or killed from a collision in one of these physical mismatches.  It will happen.

There is a fairness of competition issue as well, which is significant on a variety of levels.  Take that same transgender boy-identifying-as-girl who wants to be on the girls golf team.  To you it's "only high school sports", where competitiveness and fairness may take a backseat to mind expanding life experiences in diversity.  Of course, the girl who doesn't make sectionals, being denied her opportunity to maybe make the state championships, with the lack of that opportunity causing her to miss out on a golf scholarship to college......all because the physically more gifted transgender boy-identifying-as-girl on another team, who can hit a drive 100 yards further, took the spot she would have earned.....well, she might feel a little differently.  Again, it will happen to someone, in some sport, somewhere.

Those are just scratching the surface of the many reasons why separate boys and girls teams/divisions exist.  Are we supposed to throw all of that out, throw caution to the wind, forget about fairness, over some touchy-feely need to let the kid whose birth certificate and 6'5", 210 lb frame say male while his-her heart tells him-her he-she is a girl and we should let them do whatever they please?

campgottagopee wrote

JohnIrvingwrestles wrote

campgottagopee wrote

There's a place for everyone gets a trophy and the massive participation. It's been around for years and years. They call it intramural sports.

Varsity sports no longer have capped numbers?  News to me.  My kid's high schools in NYC still have try ours with cuts etc.. Which is cool with me.  I think the ultra competitive youth sports prior to high school (travel team hockey/baseball, competitive ski racing, football) are creepy as fuck.  It's the male equivalent of those creepy preteen beauty pageants.  Usually washed up middle aged fat dads trying to relive some past glory through their pre-teen son..... Gross.  Kids seem to relax and enjoy and actually stay with a sport longer if it's more low key in the early years.  
All I know is I see many former high schools stars who are out of shape middle aged men from my generation with avoidable health issues who would have benefitted from continuing with athletics into their adulthood but were too consumed with not being good enough at new things to try something new.  Can't play football forever....

OK, now I got ya and I agree. Sports these days are COMPLETELY different than when you ( i think) and I were coming up thru the ranks. In my day we played three sports, for me it was cross-country, hoops, and soccer (played football for only 2 years but found the runners got me in better shape for hoops which was my main sport). Seems now kids just play ONE sport (pick anyone) and play it year round trying to become the next Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretsky etc etc etc. To me that's silly.

Not sure where you guys have kids in school, or what experiences you've had, but you have some pretty strange ideas, IMHO.  Competitive youth sports the equivalent of creepy preteen beauty pageants?  Gross, creepy fat dads living vicariously, inappropriately, through their kids?  Athletes playing just one sport?  My younger son is involved in premier level youth soccer, I'm not fat and still play competitive soccer to this day so I'm not living vicariously through my son, and I'm only a little bit creepy .........and I don't see much of any of what you guys are talking about where I live.

Yes, my son is on a premier level U13 soccer team and has played at an Academy level.  He's enjoyed the sport from a young age and he sought out the opportunity to get better.  However, in addition to playing soccer in the fall he'll run winter track and is on the tennis team, in addition to playing soccer year round.  Yes, he wants to play soccer in high school, and since we don't live in an everyone-gets-on-the-team area (if such a thing exists) that's the level of commitment and effort you have to put in if you want to achieve your goal.  It's a bad thing to instill that kind of work ethic at a young age, especially when not forgoing a wider developmental experience?  I don't think so.  Heck, we could talk ODP programs and college level sports/scholarships, all of which require skills developed and used at a high level from a young age, but I'll stop here.

Indirectly related topic. I saw a story on HBO sports a couple years ago about boys that play on girls' field hockey teams. Apparently this is more common then you might think. I couldn't find a link to the video but all kinds of individual stories popped up. Here's one:
http://www.lohud.com/story/sports/high-school/field-hockey/2015/09/02/rye-field-hockey-boy-playing/71535994/
What do we all think about this?

When I was in high school we had gym "electives."  Two buddies and I elected field hockey and were the only guys.  It was so much fun.

Never forget the first day when the lady gym teacher told us to spread out legs apart at shoulder width and get acquainted with out sticks. We laughed since, even back then, I identified as male.

Field hockey has some weird rules. If you accidentally whack the ball in the shins of someone on your own team, it's penalty on you.

I watched transgenndar porn once. Freaked me out. Anyhow it was not fair to the girls team. OK I know that guy is trying to be himself/herself. OK fine, your different,  sorry you can't play on the girls basket ball team. End of story